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Difficulty levels again...I apologize in advance.


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#1 StoneComet

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 10:25 PM

@Stone:

 

It seems as though you're implying that PG can't be a successful game unless a good chunk of players are able to play at Tour Pro level.

 

I guess I would just disagree fundamentally around that point.  I don't think PP has put in the varying levels to be something you work your way through in a progression and "become a Tour Pro" but rather just to have different levels of challenge for each person to find one that works for him/her and their interests.

 

I say this based somewhat upon a conversation we had here sometime in the past (I don't recall when...I'm sure search could find it if so inclined) about the naming of the levels.  I'd suggested at one time that perhaps the levels shouldn't have names like "Pro" and "Tour Pro" for exactly the reason you're bringing up.

 

The naming is wrongly implying a progression that I don't think is intended.

 

 (perhaps I'm wrong and a Dev will correct me, but that was my takeaway from the conversation at that time about the level naming)

 

I firmly believe that renaming the different levels to Easiest, Easy, Medium, Hard and Hardest would do a lot to curtail false perceptions of condescension and division and most importantly the perception of progression. I agree that the developers might not have intended the idea of progression but that is what the naming convention implies. Even without those, my mind, and I am sure that of many others, would still be that I can progress through the difficulties up to a point. Well at what point should that be then you might ask.

 

As a consumer my expectation is that with some familiarity of the game and some practice (time spent playing), I should be able to compete, not win, at the next to hardest level (Pro), this should require only a modicum of effort from players inclined to try. This is just smart business modelling to me. The levels below this are fine tuned for players that have no interest in Sim play or a challenging swing. By the way the new OGT system goes a long way to mitigate these issues. Thanks OGT! However, they are a third party site not a first impression.

 

Most players, I would think, that are content to play at Amateur or easier difficulty are just enjoying the game and playing with friends and do not take computer gaming competitions too seriously if they are concerned with them at all. You want the majority of your players on the bubble between the, in this case, Amateur and Tour Pro difficulty. That again is smart business modelling. Maybe it is that way but it sure does not feel that way to me as an RTSC die hard.

 

I am saying that that the ability for a small but not very small or tiny chunk of the player base to achieve satisfaction at playing at the highest level is directly and indirectly related to the games commercial success. These are things that the developer must resolve as they have most of the intelligence to make an informed decision. I'm not saying a good chunk, I'm saying a FAIR chunk. I'm sure most Tour Pro players want more Tour Pro players to play with. It's a balance.

 

This tipping point, if you will, or fair chunk can most likely be analytically arrived at by monitoring the games participation levels and doing some algorithmic analysis and demographic analysis. For all I know PP is already doing this at some level. I'd be surprised if they did not. I think that generally those that have been around are somewhat satisfied with the Tour Pro level and even the Pro level. As an outsider coming in, I'm challenging that assumption and asking the more experienced and higher difficulty level of players to challenge their own assumptions and what might  be better for the game overall. Perfection can never be truly achieved unless you lower the bar a little but it is almost always worth pursuing.

 

This post was in response to a post from another thread. I started this thread only as a response and to stop hijacking Ted_Ball's original thread. I think it was important to post the response publicly as it is a topic that concerns the entire community and is an interesting debate in my opinion. I think as a community if we talk some of these issues through, civilly, the stronger we are and the more we understand each other.


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#2 DivotMaker

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 11:01 PM

I firmly believe that renaming the different levels to Easiest, Easy, Medium, Hard and Hardest would do a lot to curtail false perceptions of condescension and division and most importantly the perception of progression.

 

I don't agree. It is a Golf game. I have been playing them for 25+ years and see no issue with the current naming of the difficulty levels.


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#3 Crow357

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 11:11 PM

I too think since it is a golf game, it's appropriate to have the difficulty levels named something golf appropriate.  Besides, whether it's called Beginner or Easiest, Tour Pro or Hardest, it's the same thing.  Thank god, I don't have to level up my player with experience points just to hit a tee shot 300yds.


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#4 stopits here

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 11:43 PM

The only little problem i have is, when you start to play the game at beginner and slowly try to go up the difficulty to tour pro,when you finally think your ready for tour/tour pro, you will find (i did anyway) the game is too difficult to play using over swing at 122% (using RTS-C) it takes that aspect of the game away from you, and it's an important part of the game for sticking the greens with a full 122% shot, it's a game changer, specially when playing HARD settings and stimp 14, it's impossible to stick a green without the over swing, i don't know if it's the same for other swing types?, thoughts? 


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#5 StoneComet

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 12:16 AM

I know you guys have been at this game for a while and I'm pretty sure one of you is a closed door Beta tester if not both. I respect that so long as that respect is reciprocated. I'm not sure what 25 years of golf video game experience is supposed to mean other than your opinion is more valid. Notwithstanding, even though I value your opinion, I do not think you are looking at the whole picture or I am just missing something. It's not the same thing as names carry connotations. I agree that any naming convention would still have some of the issues that all games have with different difficulty levels. I got past it but the developers will have to ask themselves is this the best naming convention that can be used for initial public appeal and for maximum appeal over time. May I ask, what's the skin of your back if they change it. It's just a name, right. Are you both saying it would be a mistake to change it? That the game will sell less if they change It?

 

The developers may have already satisfied themselves on this question. If they have. I'm in disagreement. That does not mean I'll stop playing the game or do not respect the developers, it just means I think they could do better for themselves here. It's their call and since this subject seems to have come up before then maybe I'm beating a dead horse, which is a shame.

 

I would even go so far as to say some people might be confused, those with less golf video game experience of course, which by the way is the larger demographic. They might even think that setting it on Tour Pro lets them play like a Tour Pro which is counter intuitive. Most of these people never even set eyes on this forum and if they do most just stay out of it so the learning curve for understanding the difficulty levels and any help from the forums is lost on most consumers. Most will figure it out but it will and has caused some frustration. Frustration with playing the game itself is one thing. Frustration navigating or understanding terms is quite another issue from a development stand point from my perspective.

 

I'm certainly not advocating the use of a progression with points and stuff like that so that you can drive further etc. That is a red herring response with connotations of the dreaded slippery slope even if offered jokingly. My best experience with a golf game that provided a solid progression model was David Leadbetter's Greens. It was all behind the scenes. The more you played well (shot execution) the better you got. The further you could drive the ball and it seemed there was more forgiveness for minor mistakes. If you played poorly your game degraded. It all happened organically. One day you would just notice yourself hitting the ball further and slightly easier.

 

But I digress. It's appropriate to use the naming convention from a golf perspective, but in my opinion not the best naming convention for maximizing player awareness and player understanding from the start in a video game setting. Well, I'm off to play some JNPG and my hopes for this games success are still strong. No hard feelings and I hope I did not ruffle too many feathers.


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#6 DivotMaker

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 12:28 AM

The only little problem i have is, when you start to play the game at beginner and slowly try to go up the difficulty to tour pro,when you finally think your ready for tour/tour pro, you will find (i did anyway) the game is too difficult to play using over swing at 122% (using RTS-C) it takes that aspect of the game away from you, and it's an important part of the game for sticking the greens with a full 122% shot, it's a game changer, specially when playing HARD settings and stimp 14, it's impossible to stick a green without the over swing, i don't know if it's the same for other swing types?, thoughts? 

 

Stop trying to hit 122% shots. Play the game like you would real Golf by using course management and thinking your way around the course. I never hit 122% shots because it is not needed and the risk/reward is too penal as it should be. Learn to play at 100% shots and learn partial % shots if you truly want to move up in the rankings in Tour Pro.


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#7 Crow357

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 12:36 AM

Ah. I had no idea that the names of the difficulty levels somehow denoted self worth. They're really just level 1 to 5. And you play at whatever level you have the most fun at. When I play RTSM, 3 click or MS, I play Level 3, but when I play RTSC, I play level 5. Cause that's where I have the most fun at.
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#8 Tigers Agent

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 12:39 AM

 

I firmly believe that renaming the different levels to Easiest, Easy, Medium, Hard and Hardest would do a lot to curtail false perceptions of condescension and division and most importantly the perception of progression

with that kind of logic Stone... peewee league is easiest, little league is easy, college is medium, minor league is hard and the major

leagues are the hardest level in baseball.  In JNPG, I play in the major leagues, but my play is that of someone in the little league.

who cares?  I enjoy myself.



#9 clubcaptain

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 12:58 AM

I firmly believe that renaming the different levels to Easiest, Easy, Medium, Hard and Hardest would do a lot to curtail false perceptions of condescension and division and most importantly the perception of progression. I agree that the developers might not have intended the idea of progression but that is what the naming convention implies. Even without those, my mind, and I am sure that of many others, would still be that I can progress through the difficulties up to a point. Well at what point should that be then you might ask.

 

As a consumer my expectation is that with some familiarity of the game and some practice (time spent playing), I should be able to compete, not win, at the next to hardest level (Pro), this should require only a modicum of effort from players inclined to try. This is just smart business modelling to me. The levels below this are fine tuned for players that have no interest in Sim play or a challenging swing. By the way the new OGT system goes a long way to mitigate these issues. Thanks OGT! However, they are a third party site not a first impression.

 

Most players, I would think, that are content to play at Amateur or easier difficulty are just enjoying the game and playing with friends and do not take computer gaming competitions too seriously if they are concerned with them at all. You want the majority of your players on the bubble between the, in this case, Amateur and Tour Pro difficulty. That again is smart business modelling. Maybe it is that way but it sure does not feel that way to me as an RTSC die hard.

 

I am saying that that the ability for a small but not very small or tiny chunk of the player base to achieve satisfaction at playing at the highest level is directly and indirectly related to the games commercial success. These are things that the developer must resolve as they have most of the intelligence to make an informed decision. I'm not saying a good chunk, I'm saying a FAIR chunk. I'm sure most Tour Pro players want more Tour Pro players to play with. It's a balance.

 

This tipping point, if you will, or fair chunk can most likely be analytically arrived at by monitoring the games participation levels and doing some algorithmic analysis and demographic analysis. For all I know PP is already doing this at some level. I'd be surprised if they did not. I think that generally those that have been around are somewhat satisfied with the Tour Pro level and even the Pro level. As an outsider coming in, I'm challenging that assumption and asking the more experienced and higher difficulty level of players to challenge their own assumptions and what might  be better for the game overall. Perfection can never be truly achieved unless you lower the bar a little but it is almost always worth pursuing.

 

This post was in response to a post from another thread. I started this thread only as a response and to stop hijacking Ted_Ball's original thread. I think it was important to post the response publicly as it is a topic that concerns the entire community and is an interesting debate in my opinion. I think as a community if we talk some of these issues through, civilly, the stronger we are and the more we understand each other.

 

Way wide of the mark. I play amateur because that's my level. I am decent but will not win anything. I get satisfaction from the scores I post at this level. And contrary to your perceived wisdom about this I play tournaments all the time. As many as I can get. I wish there were more. So I'm involved with competition(s) and take it/them very seriously within my own limitations.

 

I try hard to improve but realise there's a long road ahead.

 

Unlike some, I don't try to speak for everyone or even most people but I bet I'm far from alone in what I've said.


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#10 Greensboronclion

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 01:12 AM

Ah. I had no idea that the names of the difficulty levels somehow denoted self worth. They're really just level 1 to 5. And you play at whatever level you have the most fun at. When I play RTSM, 3 click or MS, I play Level 3, but when I play RTSC, I play level 5. Cause that's where I have the most fun at.





Bingo Crow. You play what your comfortable at as I play MS or 3C at Pro and RTSC and M at Amateur level and for the record I see no reason to change the naming of the level. Oh and it's fun that way.

#11 zmax - sim

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 01:38 AM

Well, I'm against any changes in the names of difficulty levels.  It would require a change in the API and lots of changes on OGT site, which we are not in the mood for..... :)

 

It's not needed and will only add to the confusion.  Now that the game is out of beta, this is not something they should do, IMO.  The name of the difficulty levels or the difficulty themselves have no baring on the participation level of this game from what I can tell.  Beginer and Hacker levels are super easy for new players to jump right in and start having fun.  And as clubcaptain posted, he is comfortable with his level.

 

The things that will bring more participation are release of CF(this week), Unity 5.4, more eye candy(3D grass/better water), and more PGA courses(DLC or user created).


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#12 FreeBolt

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 02:01 AM

I suppose if I had a choice, I would rather not be called a hacker even if I play like one.



#13 Crusher

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 02:03 AM

Find a level and stick with it to have fun or to win.  If one's self worth is based on taxing their hand/eye coordination beyond what is reasonable then that person needs to take a hard look at the definition of masochism.  ;) 

 

Game as explained in Wikipedia


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#14 mebby

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 02:05 AM

Find a level and stick with it to have fun or to win.  If one's self worth is based on taxing their hand/eye coordination beyond what is reasonable then that person needs to take a hard look at the definition of masochism.  ;)

 

Game as explained in Wikipedia

Just like those that go to great lengths to cheat - kinda makes you wonder why they care about winning so much?


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#15 SirGrassCutter

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 02:26 AM

I firmly believe that renaming the different levels to Easiest, Easy, Medium, Hard and Hardest would do a lot to curtail false perceptions of condescension and division and most importantly the perception of progression. I agree that the developers might not have intended the idea of progression but that is what the naming convention implies. Even without those, my mind, and I am sure that of many others, would still be that I can progress through the difficulties up to a point. Well at what point should that be then you might ask.

 

As a consumer my expectation is that with some familiarity of the game and some practice (time spent playing), I should be able to compete, not win, at the next to hardest level (Pro), this should require only a modicum of effort from players inclined to try. This is just smart business modelling to me. The levels below this are fine tuned for players that have no interest in Sim play or a challenging swing. By the way the new OGT system goes a long way to mitigate these issues. Thanks OGT! However, they are a third party site not a first impression.

 

Most players, I would think, that are content to play at Amateur or easier difficulty are just enjoying the game and playing with friends and do not take computer gaming competitions too seriously if they are concerned with them at all. You want the majority of your players on the bubble between the, in this case, Amateur and Tour Pro difficulty. That again is smart business modelling. Maybe it is that way but it sure does not feel that way to me as an RTSC die hard.

 

I am saying that that the ability for a small but not very small or tiny chunk of the player base to achieve satisfaction at playing at the highest level is directly and indirectly related to the games commercial success. These are things that the developer must resolve as they have most of the intelligence to make an informed decision. I'm not saying a good chunk, I'm saying a FAIR chunk. I'm sure most Tour Pro players want more Tour Pro players to play with. It's a balance.

 

This tipping point, if you will, or fair chunk can most likely be analytically arrived at by monitoring the games participation levels and doing some algorithmic analysis and demographic analysis. For all I know PP is already doing this at some level. I'd be surprised if they did not. I think that generally those that have been around are somewhat satisfied with the Tour Pro level and even the Pro level. As an outsider coming in, I'm challenging that assumption and asking the more experienced and higher difficulty level of players to challenge their own assumptions and what might  be better for the game overall. Perfection can never be truly achieved unless you lower the bar a little but it is almost always worth pursuing.

 

This post was in response to a post from another thread. I started this thread only as a response and to stop hijacking Ted_Ball's original thread. I think it was important to post the response publicly as it is a topic that concerns the entire community and is an interesting debate in my opinion. I think as a community if we talk some of these issues through, civilly, the stronger we are and the more we understand each other.

 

Both your posts make 100% sense and I agree with them both.



#16 SirGrassCutter

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 02:31 AM

Just like those that go to great lengths to cheat - kinda makes you wonder why they care about winning so much?

 

What is your problem?  First you attack me and now someone else?  Do not offer to take a splinter out of someone else's eye, when you have a log in your own.  Nothing is more undesirable than someone judging others.



#17 mebby

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 02:38 AM

What is your problem?  First you attack me and now someone else?  Do not offer to take a splinter out of someone else's eye, when you have a log in your own.  Nothing is more undesirable than someone judging others.

There's no judging in this situation so you might want to do a little research before sticking your neck out.


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#18 StoneComet

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 05:42 AM

Way wide of the mark. I play amateur because that's my level. I am decent but will not win anything. I get satisfaction from the scores I post at this level. And contrary to your perceived wisdom about this I play tournaments all the time. As many as I can get. I wish there were more. So I'm involved with competition(s) and take it/them very seriously within my own limitations.

 

I try hard to improve but realise there's a long road ahead.

 

Unlike some, I don't try to speak for everyone or even most people but I bet I'm far from alone in what I've said.

 

Way wide of the mark, really. Well maybe for you. Where do you get the idea that I am speaking for everyone? What I said was "most players". You slide that in there at the end somewhere with "or even most people". I'm sorry I offended you in some way. You know people do have the right to generalize when trying to express an idea or concept. I said I "though"t...ugggh. Here it is even though you highlighted it in the quote:

 

 Most players, I would think, that are content to play at Amateur or easier difficulty are just enjoying the game and playing with friends and do not take computer gaming competitions too seriously if they are concerned with them at all.

 

First of all, these are my current thoughts on the matter. My opinion. Second, this sentence is an obvious generalization and your single refute is an outlier. While I still may be wrong about my assumptions of most Amateur players your refutation does not in itself disprove it. Again I'm sorry it offended you. You could even get quite a few forum members to back you up but I'll still think, in my mind, that most players that actually play the game and are content to play at Amateur level (nothing wrong with that at all) are less competitive types (nothing wrong with that either). You would have to get an actual survey of the current player base that is content with Amateur level play and ask them some questions about how competitively they play and how many tournaments they enter. I'm glad you like Amateur and that you also enjoy competitive play. I'm sure there are more like you but I'd hazard the guess that you and whatever group you can find to identify with you are in the minority. Prove my statement, a general guess really, wrong with some facts. 

 

If you got all bent out of shape and feel it's necessary to call me out in defense of other Amateur level players, which in essence is speaking for them as well, I'm not offended really. Just concerned about some of the logic being presented in response.

 

For all those others cat calling with comments about self-worth and ooohh the words they hurt so much...that's just classic. Really good stuff. Missing the point entirely, but hooray for you. And I don't even know what to make of the baseball analogy, just another straw man argument and pointless. "By your logic"...that's just rich to start it out that way with what follows. Made me laugh really.

 

Guess I really turned over the hornets nest with some of my personal and opinionated observations. Keep the names the same for all I really care at this point, it was still a minor mistake by the developers from my point of view. Moving on. Not from the game just this conversation. It's not good for the game or for me. Peace out.


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#19 frank70

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 06:47 AM

Renaming the difficulty levels would be okay for me - if there would be any evidence that they lead to confusion.

 

Some of your logic @stoneComet misses the mark imho. You say that more players will play the game, if the hardest difficulty level would be easier. First of all: I don't believe in that logic. And second: Why should PP abandon their approach to create a golf sim just to cater to the ego of players that are competitive (as you say) without being good at the game or willing to invest time to get good? Do we want to go the TGC route to attract players? TGC is already there - we don't need a clone of it.

 

Problem is: If you cater to those players, you may lose other players. I won't playing the game anymore if Tour Pro would play like Pro in the future. Look at the leaderboards: The scores on Tour Pro already are on the low side if you look at it from a simulation/realism view. On some courses the winning score is around -40 (on Tour Pro). I couldn't bear them being even lower.

 

For me some elements of the game should even be harder. Not artificially harder, but realistically harder. Scrambling is too easy, putting stats are insanely low. I am all for realism. And as long as the best players in the game are shooting 2-3 strokes per round better than the best players in the world (and that is a lot!!) i would even say that there is room to tighten up the Tour Pro difficulty.



#20 tlvx

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 08:37 AM

Some of the points made here definitely have some merit. 

That said, I think there is room for additional host options; for both easier and harder settings... with both more and less aids.

The problem with this game is not the difficulty levels; the problem is that there's really nothing to play for, regardless... which makes all these discussions on levels a moot point.

 






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