59 replies to this topic

[shimonko]

Contrary to Sliceapottomus' theory, I'm coming 3rd out of 113 on the sim tour's putting for 5-10 footers and don't gravitate towards perfect greens. I sink 83.5% of 5-10 footers. If I miss it's usually because my launch monitor gives a substantial bad read. I do not putt along a line or have any square edges to align with. It's simply because:

1) the greens are perfect
2) there is a putting assistance to aid in the inaccuracies of launch monitors
3) the BLI allows break to be too accurately read.

PGA Tour - the leader in 5-10 footers sinks 72%. I am not a world class putter. My IRL golf buddies would fall over in laughter if they knew I sunk 83.5% of 5-10 footers.

I showed a stream of Shanky to a PGA pro once contemplating Perfect Golf - he lost the initial interest as soon as he saw Shanky sink three consecutive putts in the 15-25 range. It upsets the balance of the game IMO - makes top approach shots not as valuable, which makes top drives not as valuable.

So I'm all for realistic greens - but it's how much randomness which is important. Even Augusta isn't pure and gets swamped with recovering footprints but no-one wants to see well struck putts continually miss at the last moment. Realistic needs to appreciate that a stimp test measuring 9'4" to 10'8" is considered stimp 10, and randomise speeds as well as direction, if it indeed doesn't.

[Sliceapottomus]

you can argue till you are blue in the face... you can pick out what some one says take it out of context, and then try to tear them apart if you'd like but what I said was agreed upon so I guess im not the only one that doesn't like the way realistic works, or has to agree with any one certain point of view .. for those that may not have read the aformentiond post here it is again .."realistic is just too variable and effects ball too much for my liking the way it works now.. Nothing any one can say will change my opinion on that"...  be one sided if you like hide your head in the sand if you wish . call other people out when your not agreed with .. fine by me I wont loose any sleep tonight or any night over what is said in the forums...  

[shimonko]

You best disappear from the thread if you consider it an argument, as we're discussing here.

Slice: "If you putt well, it seems you'll gravitate towards perfect greens" - Well I putt well and I don't gravitate towards it. Is that taking you out of context?

 

I don't care about changing your opinion - we're here for the greater good, not you. And one-sided? I clearly mentioned it's a matter of how much randomness which is important - pretty much the same thing you're saying: "realistic is just too variable".

[Acrilix]

Grass, in real life is an imperfect surface. It is made up of millions of living blades that are constantly moving, albeit incredibly slowly. Underneath there is another less than perfect surface of earth which causes further deviation to the ball and will add to the angle of deviation caused by the movement of the grass. The ball itself is also not a perfect sphere either, but has dimples, adding to the random effect as the grass blades catch in these. The upshot of all of this is that no putt will travel along the same path, no matter how perfectly hit in real life. According to MJ, this relates to 1 perfectly hit putt in 10 missing the hole over a 10 foot distance. The realistic setting is designed to replicate this, and while it does so in the results it achieves, the big problem is that it does it in a visually very unrealistic way and this is probably why many find it unacceptable. There are some of course that just don't want it realistic at all because realistic IS random and they want skill alone to be the deciding factor (unlike real life), and for these people there is the 'perfect' setting available. I'm fine with 'realistic' but I would like to see it done (or actually, 'not see it done'  ) in a subtle, unobservable way, rather than the noticeable kinks that are currently used to achieve the results.

[DennisHarris]

This thread is mostly what if and or banter.  We have 3 green condition setting in JNPG.  The Perfect, Realistic and Bumpy green condition IMHO are options the same as green hardness of soft normal and hard.  Nothing more nothing less.  Simple game play settings.   Host a game or setting up a tournament these options are set.   No other golf game I know has this variety of green settings. 

 

Would a green of realistic or bumpy be used in a tournament.  I believe realistic and bumpy was tried a OGT for the mouse and controller tournaments and more (not all) called for perfect green settings only.  I am not an OGT admin so I may be wrong.  I am relying on memory.  And a 71 year old memory at that.    

[Buck]

Grass, in real life is an imperfect surface. It is made up of millions of living blades that are constantly moving, albeit incredibly slowly. Underneath there is another less than perfect surface of earth which causes further deviation to the ball and will add to the angle of deviation caused by the movement of the grass. The ball itself is also not a perfect sphere either, but has dimples, adding to the random effect as the grass blades catch in these. The upshot of all of this is that no putt will travel along the same path, no matter how perfectly hit in real life. According to MJ, this relates to 1 perfectly hit putt in 10 missing the hole over a 10 foot distance. The realistic setting is designed to replicate this, and while it does so in the results it achieves, the big problem is that it does it in a visually very unrealistic way and this is probably why many find it unacceptable. There are some of course that just don't want it realistic at all because realistic IS random and they want skill alone to be the deciding factor (unlike real life), and for these people there is the 'perfect' setting available. I'm fine with 'realistic' but I would like to see it done (or actually, 'not see it done'  ) in a subtle, unobservable way, rather than the noticeable kinks that are currently used to achieve the results.

Really great post Acrilix..
That is really the crux of it for me. There's a lot of imperfection and randomness in the real sport in real life on a real course.
Every single putt situation for each golfer is slightly different, no matter how perfectly maintained a green is. It just is how the game is.

Hopefully down the road the visuals and the way they implemented the Realistic & Bumpy modes can be continually worked on to address the issues many have with them and luckily those folks can always just use Perfect for now.

I have to say, I basically always play on Realistic and just don't even think about it. The course and the experience just is what it is out there and it's a really cool extra variation to have if a user wants.

[axe360]

So now we (designers) should just make perfectly flat greens so ya'll can change them to what you like? Would save a lot of time building greens..

Sorry but I will never like some arcade feature that seems to change something from the way it was designed by some one who has spent hour after hour building them.

 

What's next? Being able to change the fairways/flags/tee boxes/water features? OMG!

[Buck]

So now we (designers) should just make perfectly flat greens so ya'll can change them to what you like? Would save a lot of time building greens..
Sorry but I will never like some arcade feature that seems to change something from the way it was designed by some one who has spent hour after hour building them.
 
What's next? Being able to change the fairways/flags/tee boxes/water features? OMG!

Axe my friend....how many times do we have to cover the same thing, in the same thread no less?

The Perfect/Realistic/Bumpy greens setting is tweaking the experience of the physical playing surface on a a given round. It's adding a dimension that designers have nothing to do with. It's "above" the terrain and the smoothness you are laying down at the design level.

You just said this in this exact thread, not even 3 days ago..
 

Yes I did but I like your last reply. Makes sense to me now. It's the surface and I guess it is kind of cool that it is changeable in that respect. Gives a more all inclusive experience. It's really not making it's own humps and bumps.
You are wise Mr. Buck.

What gives?

[axe360]

Yeah, after much thought I changed my mind. I just can't get over the fact that I spend hours and hours on greens and it just feels like they're being manipulated by some outside source.

It's just how I feel.

[Buck]

Yeah, after much thought I changed my mind. I just can't get over the fact that I spend hours and hours on greens and it just feels like they're being manipulated by some outside source.
It's just how I feel.

I understand your frustration Larry but let me put it to you this way.

Do we think Jack Nicklaus, on the design side, is getting frustrated that weather and conditions and the seasons change the grass conditions a bit and alter how the greens play on a given day, time of day, etc?

Or do we think he embraces that it's just part of the real sport outside in real environments of the world?

I just don't understand the designer mindset of creating a course design and then expecting it to be a super static experience that is precisely the same for everyone in exactly the way a designer thought it should be, at all times.

Golf courses are not like that.

Why is that same designer mindset not mad that the wind could be different and you had a vision to have a certain tree be in the way but today the wind is from a different direction?

[axe360]

Well that's why we don't make greens completely flat.  

 

Buck, I'm not saying you're wrong and I am right or vice versa, I'm just letting you know how I feel about it from my side.

In the end, it's what the community as a whole want and like, not just me. I will keep trying to make my greens challenging and fun and if these changes make ppl like them even more than gr8! I haven't had any complaints yet, well, accept one. lol

 

Take care buddy.

[Buck]

Well that's why we don't make greens completely flat.

Buck, I'm not saying you're wrong and I am right or vice versa, I'm just letting you know how I feel about it from my side.
In the end, it's what the community as a whole want and like, not just me. I will keep trying to make my greens challenging and fun and if these changes make ppl like them even more than gr8! I haven't had any complaints yet, well, accept one. lol

Take care buddy.

Fair enough Larry.

It just seems like someone upset about allowing the user to slightly tweak the green surface quality should also be upset we can change the stimp and the wind. None of them are changing the physical design of a course but rather the conditions of the course and the situation for that round.

You take care also bud.
Cheers

[Greensboronclion]

Axe I hope you do keep making them challenging as nothing worse than flat greens IMHO.  Lots of break is good and very challenging and as long as not unfair its all good.  

[Buck]

Axe I hope you do keep making them challenging as nothing worse than flat greens IMHO.  Lots of break is good and very challenging and as long as not unfair its all good.

 

I totally agree - Larry, and all course designers, please alter nothing about what you do with your course designs!

 

I clearly need to step away from the forum as this is making me frustrated.   

The design of a green complex as it relates to the shape and slope of the terrain has literally nothing to do with the Realistic greens setting.

Using the Realistic, Perfect or Bumpy setting doesn't allow a user to flatten out or change any terrain or anything even remotely like that.

 

Do we all understand the difference?
 

[Acrilix]

So now we (designers) should just make perfectly flat greens so ya'll can change them to what you like? Would save a lot of time building greens..

Sorry but I will never like some arcade feature that seems to change something from the way it was designed by some one who has spent hour after hour building them.

 

What's next? Being able to change the fairways/flags/tee boxes/water features? OMG!

 

After reading this post, you seem to have no understanding of the points being made here. What have flat greens got to do with anything and what does making the grass behave realistically have to do with the design of the course?

It is greens that don't behave like real grass that are an arcade feature and one that has continually been implemented in golf games of the past. PP are trying to change that and bring more realism into the game. You seem to want your grass artificially frozen so that there is no random movement whatsoever.

[Buck]

@Axe:

 

Even if in a course design you made a flat terrain - on top of that flat terrain real grass grows.

 

The quality of surface setting is adjusting the real grass on top (perfect, reaslistic, bumpy - ignore the names and just think of quality gradations).

 

Think of your terrain like a table top you made and the grass on top like a very thin table cloth.

Designers in PG simply do not have finite, perfect or consistent control over the table cloth (grass surface), nor do real life golf course designers.

 

At a fixed moment in time (initial course creation) they have a super limited time when it might be a certain way, but as soon as different times of day and seasons and weather and age of the surface and maintenance crews get in the mix...it's different for every single player basically.

[NoPutt]

I get it Buck. As designers, all we do is put in the humps, slopes,

trees, and benches, and no one can change that. I hope to oneday

see grass that grows and turns with the sun, or greens that dry out

and get faster, and any number of things that make a round more

realistic and fun. No one is trying to change the smile on anyones

Mona Lisa.

[Buck]

I hope to one day see grass that grows and turns with the sun, or greens that dry out
and get faster, and any number of things that make a round more
realistic and fun.

 
You and me both!
That is sort of the pièce de résistance in the golf course simulation world (or part of it anyhow)

[axe360]

Thank you again Buck. You explained to me that my hang up was on the Terminology that is being used and now that you explained it in that way, I finally and once and for all agree.

 

Thank you bro for treating me with the same respect I try to treat everyone else. Means a lot

 

 

 

L

[Buck]

Thank you again Buck. You explained to me that my hang up was on the Terminology that is being used and now that you explained it in that way, I finally and once and for all agree.
 
Thank you bro for treating me with the same respect I try to treat everyone else. Means a lot
 
L

Awesome!!
 
It seems like this setting, like the difficulty levels, suffers from the actual names of the levels causing confusion.
 
"Bumpy" and "Tour Pro" have insinuations to them that aren't really fully accurate about the goals and/or what's taking place with a given setting in the game.