41 replies to this topic

[Blackadar]

I saw today where Perfect Golf was Greenlit on Steam.  Congratulations!  For some reason I thought it had been Greenlit before now, but apparently not.  

 

Now just release the friggin' game already...  

[Dazmaniac]

 

Interesting to see what PP will do now this has happened.

 

I guess there was no point pushing for Greenlight to then have nothing to offer all those who have backed it to 100%, lol. Going by the comments on Steam, folks are interested, but once again need something to go on otherwise they are ready to move on and concede PG will never happen.

 

I'm sure PP will prove them wrong, it just might take some time.

[Bob1527]

Just been over on Steam adding a comment (giving a bit of praise),Daz is right about lack of offerings to keep folks interested it might be an idea to release an updated version of the alpha 'practice area' we had a couple of months back on Steam as a teaser,don't want the interest generated on Steam to fade (a lot of potential customers there)....

[Andrew]

I think we will do more than that.....

[Davefevs]

Now, you're just teasing! A Master alpha / beta???? Just one hole?????????

[fungolfer]

A hole is enough for an ace lmao!

Andrew I hope you are not playing with our feelings

[Davefevs]

12th at Augusta would be sweet......

[KenR]

[pdxdriver]

blah blah blah

[Blackadar]

I think we will do more than that..... 

 

Enough teasing.  I think that time has come and gone.  It's time to see something a little more concrete.  

 

I believe you guys are building a great product, but I think you're marketing - or lack thereof - leaves something to be desired. The Golf Club has easily taken the lead in the "perception wars" among gamers with their better website, announced release date and slicker front-page videos.  For example, at this point I don't think we've seen an actual model of a golfer, whereas those kind of screenshots are all over their website.  I think this may turn out to be the better product, but that won't matter if a large percentage of potential customers end up buying another product.

[remers]

I share your frustration Blackadar and seem to spend far more time following TGC myself now too.  However, if PG turns out to be half as good as I suspect it will, it won't take long for the word to spread and it just means that we'll have TGC to play in the meantime.  Imagine how frustrated we would all be feeling right now if TGC hadn't come along at the same time    Plenty of room for two games so don't lose faith in the PG team, they'll surely pull something special out of the bag eventually!

[Blackadar]

I share your frustration Blackadar and seem to spend far more time following TGC myself now too.  However, if PG turns out to be half as good as I suspect it will, it won't take long for the word to spread and it just means that we'll have TGC to play in the meantime.  Imagine how frustrated we would all be feeling right now if TGC hadn't come along at the same time    Plenty of room for two games so don't lose faith in the PG team, they'll surely pull something special out of the bag eventually!

 

Remers, while I appreciate your optimism, I have to disagree. There probably isn't room for two golf games on the PC market. It's a niche market and one that hasn't had a major PC release in years. There may be a high level of pent-up demand, but there isn't a massively broad market base. The first good golf game to the market probably wins this war unless somehow the competition can show a significant reason why their product is superior. And that's best done *before* either product is released. Otherwise, it's out of sight and out of mind.

 

PG has continually failed, and failed badly, in the marketing of their product. They entirely failed in their crowd-sourcing opportunity on KS and it died a miserable death. They've failed to leverage their first, and likely most ardent, supporters from that KS. They've missed every date, failed to produce even a decent looking demo, have had two now very mediocre websites, produced sporadic (at best) updates, offered not much beyond cryptic comments for months on end and so forth. Andrew's comment in this thread is representative of that. It has no substance behind it and if history has shown anything about the PG team, it won't be followed up on in any kind of timely fashion.

 

Let me provide an example of marketing failure. Know those "TPC" threads in the course designer forum? A good marketer stickies those threads. Uses those sceenshots to splash on the front page. Records Brian making a hole and puts that on the front page. Shows that hole being played by a golfer, backed by a little music and ends with the PP logo. Heck, it could be made into a series of little video clips as he develops different holes. Get people to come to the website and see the more detailed posts as he shows his work hole by hole. None of this takes a long time and is stuff that won't take much away from Brian's time, but can generate substantial excitement among prospective customers. Instead, that thread is buried in the forum now with only a handful of people having ever seen it. That's marketing 101...and that opportunity has been lost. Frankly, it's mind-boggling to me to miss so many marketing opportunities when an 800 pound gorilla named TGC has shown up on your doorstep.  

 

Now there's a strong chance that TGC will launch before PG. If it's good, do you think many people will be interested in PG? Why would they be interested? PG hasn't produced a demo or even a good video beyond the one created for kickstarter, there's virtually no information about the game itself, not a character model to be seen, game modes haven't been disclosed....at this point it's little more than rumorware. Typically during development you'd like a "slow drip" of well-produced and well-presented information to keep your potential customers engaged. Instead, PG has turned off the spigot for months at a time. It's not a product failure and not a personal failure, but it most certainly is a marketing failure.

 

I almost get the feeling that PG is adopting a "build it and they will come" marketing strategy. That doesn't work often. Maybe they're planning on a big marketing blitz when the product is close to release, but if everyone is happily playing TGC at that point who will really bother to listen?

 

I've been following PG since I backed it in KS. I've been a fan. But at this point I'm more than a little tired of these flippant and cryptic comments by the PG staff when there's nothing of substance released. I appreciate they have a lot of pride in their work but at this point the shell game comes across as tired and worn. This is an organization that needs to hire a decent marketer and start producing a steady stream of well-produced information on why potential buyers should bother considering PG. For this potential customer, the competition is looking better by the day while PG offers me no reason why I should continue to follow their product and consider it for purchase.

[IanD]

Whilst I understand your frustration... I don't share your views.

 

I don't know the exact science to the questions or opinions you raise. In my opinion, TGC is a console aimed product, that may hope to satisfy PC users too. There site is frequented often by their Admin, but this one is too in comparison. They may have more Admin certainly, but that doesn't make anything better. Nothing has been released to base anything solid upon. It's all conjecture at the moment, and whilst you may feel the guys here at PP have yet to reveal a demo, you've not been here long enough to perhaps comment. There was a demo, a very early Alpha build giving us a feel for the ball physics and visuals.

 

Add to this the current Beta of the Course Forge, for which I'm involved, I can assure you TGC won't come close to what is achieveable.

 

The game itself, is developing as I type this, but that's all I know for now. However, that's all I know about the TGC too..

 

There IS room for both games to exist, and whilst you may feel the build it and they will come approach won't work... I feel sure the game will. If it won't be for you... then there's little I can do to change that. But it will come.. they are building it.

[Kablammo11]

Blackadar, HB Studios have well over 100 employees - or was it 200? - a day care center and apparently their own paintball arena. PP are, I estimate, about a dozen guys who can't afford a whirlpool in their office or a 24h buffet in their own cafeteria. They probably don't even have a cafeteria. Yes, their communication is sub-par, to put it kindly, and their marketing strategy, for lack of a better word, seems non-existent.  But just imagine you and your pals having to work your butts off for 3 or more years just to develop and create a 21st century computer golf game and having to keep people like..., well, like you, happy at the same time by spoon-feeding them juicy little tidbits every two days... Boggles the mind. Comparing them to an established outfit like HBS is downright unfair.

 

Considering the paucity of game-play choices, the painfully oversaturated, gaudy colors and the slightly off-putting one-size-fits-all approach of a joystick thumbswing, HBS is making a beeline for the console market, trying to leave their mark quickly to usurp the EA Sports golf hegemony in the very same year these unworthy oversimplificacters from Tiburon have taken their tiger timeout. 

PG, being aimed at the more discriminating PC golf market, does not need to race them to this imaginary finish line. Yes, HBS will release a PC version as well, but their entire game design reeks of console and will not translate well to PC because of that.

[Blackadar]

Whilst I understand your frustration... I don't share your views.

 

I don't know the exact science to the questions or opinions you raise. In my opinion, TGC is a console aimed product, that may hope to satisfy PC users too. There site is frequented often by their Admin, but this one is too in comparison. They may have more Admin certainly, but that doesn't make anything better. Nothing has been released to base anything solid upon. It's all conjecture at the moment, and whilst you may feel the guys here at PP have yet to reveal a demo, you've not been here long enough to perhaps comment. There was a demo, a very early Alpha build giving us a feel for the ball physics and visuals.

 

Add to this the current Beta of the Course Forge, for which I'm involved, I can assure you TGC won't come close to what is achieveable. 

 

The game itself, is developing as I type this, but that's all I know for now. However, that's all I know about the TGC too..

 

There IS room for both games to exist, and whilst you may feel the build it and they will come approach won't work... I feel sure the game will. If it won't be for you... then there's little I can do to change that. But it will come.. they are building it.

 

As I stated in my post, I've been here since the Kickstarter.  Given that only about a dozen people ever posted on the old forums, that puts me here longer than almost anyone else whose name isn't Andrew.  I'm willing to extend you the benefit of the doubt that somehow you missed that in my post, but please note it's difficult to effectively communicate with someone who misses important points like that.  I downloaded and offered my feedback on the ball physics tool. That's not an alpha. 

[Blackadar]

Blackadar, HB Studios have well over 100 employees - or was it 200? - a day care center and apparently their own paintball arena. PP are, I estimate, about a dozen guys who can't afford a whirlpool in their office or a 24h buffet in their own cafeteria. They probably don't even have a cafeteria. Yes, their communication is sub-par, to put it kindly, and their marketing strategy, for lack of a better word, seems non-existent.  But just imagine you and your pals having to work your butts off for 3 or more years just to develop and create a 21st century computer golf game and having to keep people like..., well, like you, happy at the same time by spoon-feeding them juicy little tidbits every two days... Boggles the mind. Comparing them to an established outfit like HBS is downright unfair.

 

Considering the paucity of game-play choices, the painfully oversaturated, gaudy colors and the slightly off-putting one-size-fits-all approach of a joystick thumbswing, HBS is making a beeline for the console market, trying to leave their mark quickly to usurp the EA Sports golf hegemony in the very same year these unworthy oversimplificacters from Tiburon have taken their tiger timeout. 

PG, being aimed at the more discriminating PC golf market, does not need to race them to this imaginary finish line. Yes, HBS will release a PC version as well, but their entire game design reeks of console and will not translate well to PC because of that.

 

 

I wouldn't be so sure.  A studio that size has the resources and the means to port their game effectively should they choose to do so. Besides, if their product is shit (as you'd like to indicate) and there's no market awareness of a viable alternative, then all that does is shrink the potential market! It's a lose-lose. If anything, PPs best chance is to hope that TCG does well enough to ride their coattails because it's coming quite obvious they're not capable of marketing the game on their own.

 

As you said, their "their communication is sub-par, to put it kindly, and their marketing strategy, for lack of a better word, seems non-existent."  Which is the entire problem.  While they may be "working their butts off for 3 or more years just to develop and create a 21st century computer golf game", the goal here is to establish a successful business and a successful franchise.  That is not easily done by ignoring the marketing aspects of the business.  "Build it and they will come" is not usually effective outside of a Kevin Cosner movie.  While no one is asking them to produce content "every two days", there's no reason for little to no content whatsoever.  Furthermore, there's no reason to come on the forums and post teaser comments that never get fulfilled. Andrew has done that before, numerous times, and there's rarely (if ever) been a timely follow up. It's bad business and shows a complete lack of marketing awareness.

 

Simply put, the handful of people who post here aren't enough to support "3 years of development" by "a dozen guys". That's too big of a group to consider them a startup indie studio. They're going to need a lot of purchases to pay for that development. And if they don't find a way to differentiate their product and create some awareness, that's not going to happen. If they let TCG dictate the message for the entire market, then they take on additional and unnecessary risk.

 

Seriously, not even posting something on the front page about being Greenlit by the single biggest distribution platform for PC games outside of Amazon? Stuff like that just boggles the mind.  I certainly hope they're better at building a golf game than their tone-deaf forum posts and their lack of marketing skills would indicate.  

 

Besides, being small isn't an excuse. Look at the recent launch of Banished - it was a massively successful niche market game and topped the Steam sales charts for the better part of two weeks. That game was created by ONE guy (graphics, sound, gameplay...everything) and has some pretty high production values. He did a masterful job of keeping his audience interested.  He created an interesting blog that he posted to every couple of weeks.  He released well-done but short videos that showed the game in development.  He pumped out nice looking screenshots that complimented the gameplay (a screenie of a course is nice - a screenie of the course, the avatar and the UI is far better).  He kept a slow drip of information coming to the users and kept them on the hook. It became a very anticipated release. If one guy can do that, then this team of 12 can certainly do it. It's just that they don't and it's a massive oversight on their part.

 

I'm not saying I won't buy it.  I am saying I'm getting to the point that I think they need to hire someone professional and let that person get the message out there before it's too late. I am saying that if TGC turns out to be good, I have been given NO REASON WHATSOEVER by PP to buy their product too. If that's coming from one of their oldest supporters, what does that say about their casual supporters or the huge majority of potential buyers who don't even know about it?

 

Also, enough of the bullshit cryptic comments by the staff. I appreciate Andrew's confidence, but he should start walking the walk to back up his talk. That shtick just doesn't work anymore.

[IanD]

As I stated in my post, I've been here since the Kickstarter.  Given that only about a dozen people ever posted on the old forums, that puts me here longer than almost anyone else whose name isn't Andrew.  I'm willing to extend you the benefit of the doubt that somehow you missed that in my post, but please note it's difficult to effectively communicate with someone who misses important points like that.  I downloaded and offered my feedback on the ball physics tool. That's not an alpha. 

I don't believe it's difficult to communicate, and yes I did miss that point and see your date of joining the site. That doesn't mean to say I knew you had been active since that date. You did not mention the Alpha, and you may now call it ball physics tool, when it effectively was still an Alpha.

 

I'm not seeking to dispute every point regarding your opinion, but I simply don't share it. What about the numerous posts displaying what is being achieved by the Beta testers of the current CF ? This clearly shows work has progressed... not to your speed granted, and likely mine too. But every step is one in the right direction.

 

As for other comparisons, the guys here at PP do have other products, as I'm sure you're aware of. The CF and PG are not the only things they are working upon, and we could argue all day where TGC originally came from. Either way.. both will happen.

[Devon]

Congrats to PG on greenlight on Steam, hope to see this game released soon

[Dazmaniac]

If anyone was here at PP from the early days, then they would know that the Perfect Golf game is nothing more than a side project, using the software that they use for their #1 priority - the golf simulator.

 

Whilst they were developing the golf simulator setup, they realised that there may be an opportunity to develop a PC golf game using the data they had from Trackman. This was always going to depend on being able to raise the finances to support the project. Obviously the Kickstarter didn't put any coins in the hat, so they had to look elsewhere.

 

They signed a deal with Sky Sports and continued working on the simulator, whilst slow progress was made with the actual game and course designer. Even now they are still looking at ways to raise revenue. The game has now reached Greenlight on Steam so it's another step in the right direction.

 

Hopefully this slow progress will begin to bear some fruit. We are seeing what the BETA guys are achieving with the CF and Unity (streets ahead of TCG's course creator IMO) and now we wait on some form of gameplay ALPHA/BETA.

 

TCG might make the leap first, but having had some first hand experience with their game, it seems that they are leaning more towards the console crowd than the PC (even though the current BETA is on PC) as they seem intent on the analogue stick wing and a mouse swing (of any kind) still seems a distant dream.

 

I have faith in PP. The game may not arrive any day soon, but I am confident one day it will and also with a swing that can be controlled by a mouse, lol.

 

[Dazmaniac]

Liking Perfect Parallel's new FB cover photo....