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#1 M Rose

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Posted 06 August 2019 - 09:33 PM

A (very) old original of mine; this one goes all the way back to GBC! Originally it was called Point Vincent. After an abandoned attempt to update it to a Links design a few years ago, I decided to revive it again for PG and converted the terrain. The front nine is a bit different to the original, but the back nine is fairly faithful.

I'm somewhat uncertain about where I want to go with this; I have not yet learned 3D grass but I'm feeling like I should, just based on the overall direction of things. Obviously in the past I would have released this as it is now as I feel like it is about as good as I can do on an original course using all the basic techniques up to this point, but things of course are evolving and if I don't evolve with them, I could be left behind.
 

I guess the shorter version is that should I still be investing any time to play originals with no overlay or 3dg?
 

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#2 Buck

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Posted 06 August 2019 - 09:37 PM

Personally I think at least some usage of overlay adds a ton of realism to the courses.

3DG can also add a lot - but it does have to be done right and an approach of just “tons of grass” hasn’t yet looked to me like the best tradeoff for performance, visuals, or even necessarily realism.

I have to say I am kind of “unethusiastic” about just the original/old techniques with no overlay and no 3-D grass.

The newer stuff that is blending multiple techniques looks a lot better usually I think.

All that said, your two screenshots look really really nice!

#3 M Rose

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Posted 06 August 2019 - 10:23 PM

That's what I want to feel out - where I should invest my time going forward, because it is becoming more limited.
 

I've used overlay twice now and I'm not really super crazy about it. As for 3D grass, I have not yet tried it in part because I have an aversion to Blender and other programs like it. I guess my main concern is becoming obsolete, at the expense of being uninterested in the course design process evolving into something where the bulk of the work required is done outside of Unity/Course Forge and turns into something else entirely.


 


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#4 Buck

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Posted 06 August 2019 - 10:51 PM

I think the main thing I like about overlay courses is just the subtle color variations and imperfections like divots and marks and lines that can come from real imagery blended in.

#5 jspirate

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Posted 06 August 2019 - 11:22 PM

As a player, I am not sold on the overlay technique yet.  It can look really good flying through the air, but sometimes that doesn't translate to a good look when you are standing over the ball.  In fact, sometimes it looks flat out bad up close.

 

I guess there is a bit of give-n-take.  Just my personal preference I guess...


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Courses:

Bradford Links - released

Ironwood - released

Cypress Landing - released (also available in a 3DG version)

Crow's Nest - released


#6 Buck

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Posted 06 August 2019 - 11:49 PM

As a player, I am not sold on the overlay technique yet.  It can look really good flying through the air, but sometimes that doesn't translate to a good look when you are standing over the ball.  In fact, sometimes it looks flat out bad up close.
 
I guess there is a bit of give-n-take.  Just my personal preference I guess...


Hmm - I think we should try to come up with examples on each side of this to support what would be good/bad for reference/discussion.

I'll try to remember to take some screens next time I play and see some good/bad.

I just know that if everything has a uniform and "perfect" look, it doesn't feel realistic or representative of the real world to me. It's one of the big knocks I have on the visuals in TGC. My term for it is "Mario golf look" - but TGC is generally much worse on that aspect than most all examples in PG land.

#7 Buck

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Posted 06 August 2019 - 11:56 PM

@jspirate

Do you recall a particular course where you feel that overlay doesn't look great?

Just curious if you remember one off the top of your head.

#8 jspirate

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Posted 07 August 2019 - 12:40 AM

Hmm - I think we should try to come up with examples on each side of this to support what would be good/bad for reference/discussion.

I'll try to remember to take some screens next time I play and see some good/bad.

I just know that if everything has a uniform and "perfect" look, it doesn't feel realistic or representative of the real world to me. It's one of the big knocks I have on the visuals in TGC. My term for it is "Mario golf look" - but TGC is generally much worse on that aspect than most all examples in PG land.

 

I understand and I don't care for that either.  As for the overlay, I can't recall a specific course off the top of my head, but they all suffer from same fate.  The 3 foot distance is basically a pixelated look.  In the the air and off the tee they do look great though.

 

I'll see if I can grab a screen shot next time I play one... 


i7-8700K
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Courses:

Bradford Links - released

Ironwood - released

Cypress Landing - released (also available in a 3DG version)

Crow's Nest - released


#9 Buck

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Posted 07 August 2019 - 12:44 AM

I can't recall a specific course off the top of my head, but they all suffer from same fate.  The 3 foot distance is basically a pixelated look.


huh.. super weird

I honestly can't say I've noticed that or felt that way

 

(and I'm pretty picky on graphics stuff usually).

 



#10 Buck

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Posted 07 August 2019 - 12:46 AM

I'll see if I can grab a screen shot next time I play one... 

 

Cool - thank you



#11 jspirate

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Posted 07 August 2019 - 01:06 AM

OK, maybe I was mistaken.  I just loaded up a couple courses that I remembered to be overlay and I didn't see the pixelation that I remember seeing.  What I remember was a harsh contrast between the greens and the blacks (basically the colors if the individual pixels).  Maybe that was from the early on discussions and before the designers honed their skill :shrug:

 

LOL, I dunno...  what was it that Ozzy Osborne said - "of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."


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Courses:

Bradford Links - released

Ironwood - released

Cypress Landing - released (also available in a 3DG version)

Crow's Nest - released


#12 RBarley

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Posted 07 August 2019 - 12:52 PM

Matt,

Point Alexander looks fine the way it is from the screen shots that you've provided. I've played a few courses with the overlay method and I have mixed feelings about the look. I think it really comes down to how much time the course designer has spent on the course. The method is good and if you follow DP's tutorials you'll see some better results, but it takes a lot of tweaking which means time spent. I've started my first course using the overlay method and you spend a lot of time in and out of photoshop and blender. If you spend the time getting the overlay correct and have a good set of textures you can get the visual results. The 3D grass is another process that takes more time also. Looking at DP's tutorials for the method. If you plan your splines correctly it won't take a ton of time to achieve a decent result. As mentioned above it will take a performance hit to use on lower end computers and will struggle playing the course. You have the talents to be a good course designer and have shown this in your prior designs. As with most things you do. You must decide to do quantity or quality.



#13 Sliceapottomus

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Posted 07 August 2019 - 05:01 PM

Matt, and only Matt, Not looking for arguments from the peanut gallery, I agree with you on the overlay, some do look great if done correctly, and some just seem blurry when you are up close and playing the game which is what I like to do. I mean isn't playing the actual game what most of us are here to do. The addition of 3 d grass to some of these has hidden some of the blurred appearance. I guess there are some that don't play the game and just zoom around and sight-see. You cant make everyone happy all of the time so just be you and do what you do. I like your courses, they play great and look the part always.... This is the thing that matters most to the people that I play with and people that have bought this game to "play" Golf thanks for your contributions and you don't  just have talent to be good, you already are a good designer. Thanks again...


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#14 Buck

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Posted 07 August 2019 - 06:04 PM

Matt, and only Matt, Not looking for arguments from the peanut gallery,


Could you not have omitted this starting sentence?

It's such a polarizing way to "contribute".

#15 M Rose

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 12:09 AM

I want to try doing 3D grass regardless because I think it looks cool anyway. But is it going to be the kind of thing where only some people can play it, and not everyone?

 

That's another thing that I would hate to see this evolve into - a situation where I need two copies of everything.


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#16 jspirate

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 01:06 AM

I want to try doing 3D grass regardless because I think it looks cool anyway. But is it going to be the kind of thing where only some people can play it, and not everyone?

 

That's another thing that I would hate to see this evolve into - a situation where I need two copies of everything.

 

I am not using either 3DG or overlay for my current WIP.  Maybe on my next project (or maybe I will add 3DG later), but for now I am gonna let the dust settle a little...


i7-8700K
GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS Pro
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MSI GeForce GTX 1080 Ti Gaming X
LG 32GK850G
Win 10 Home Premium on 1TB SSD

 

Courses:

Bradford Links - released

Ironwood - released

Cypress Landing - released (also available in a 3DG version)

Crow's Nest - released


#17 zmax - sim

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 01:13 AM

I want to try doing 3D grass regardless because I think it looks cool anyway. But is it going to be the kind of thing where only some people can play it, and not everyone?
 
That's another thing that I would hate to see this evolve into - a situation where I need two copies of everything.



DPRoberts added 3D grass to Orchard Valley and FPS actually improved FPS. GPU utilization went up as well.
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#18 LeazesNDR

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 11:12 AM

DPRoberts added 3D grass to Orchard Valley and FPS actually improved FPS. GPU utilization went up as well.

Was gonna post something similar myself.



#19 M Rose

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Posted 10 May 2020 - 02:55 AM

I'm actively working on this again.

I think I may go ahead and beta this without 3dg because 1) I don't seem to be absorbing it very well, and 2) I think I may be too far gone with spline and cart path placement on this particular course at this point to do it right.
 

Plus I'm at a point where I'm returning to designing after several months away and my life essentially turning upside down (in some ways literally) so I'm kinda looking to clear out old projects and move on to a new phase.


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#20 M Rose

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Posted 10 May 2020 - 02:56 AM

(Duplicate post, please delete)


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