48 replies to this topic

[jedi_mike]

i havent seen this topic talked about yet but what kinda style(type) of putting will the game have? something like two online or tw08? just hope it isnt overly difficult to able to read the greens and hit to a distance. unlike two on downhillers were the camera angle to me wasnt high enough to read it properly(or any long putt).thats why most pepole wanted to pitch/chip on green.imo...just hope its nothing like the way it is over on wgt.

[Kablammo11]

jedi_mike, Noooooooo! (voice trailing off in despair)

 

You have just unleashed another highly emotional "pitching-on-the-greens" debate! Just wait and see until the usual suspects come crawling out of the woodwork to re-enact their age-old, endless battles...   Guys, please don't and stick to the topic, I beg you!

 

Because the OP is absolutely right, putting is well worth a consideration or two at this stage.

 

For instance, will it be 3-Click Swing only, even with a 4-Click swing meter for the long game, since hitting a ball thin or fat with the putter is not really a realistic occurence?

Will there be a putting grid? If yes, I implore the Devs not to color it like a rainbow to show elevation, blue for low, red for high etc... one of the most horrific sights in computer golf practised in some other games.

And since we heard about the long game that different pieces of equipment will influence the shot trajectories and distances in a certain manner, are there plans to also have putters with different inherent attributes?

 

My humble point of view:

A different swing type, even swing meter for putting (don't know how, exactly), because realistically the putting stroke bears no resemblance to the golf swing and is an entirely different sort of motion - hence, another swing meter.

Putting grids are pretty much a staple of computer golf, so I don't see how they can be not implemented. Perhaps a different kind of grid? What about altitudinal curves, with lines laid out horizontally in increments of 1 inch of elevation, instead of a geometric grid? 

Putters are tricky to "attributize", tho. If the sweet spot were bigger, what would be the trade off disadvantage? Irregular pace off the blade? 

 

Well, food for thought for all of us. Particapation by the good people of this Forum and clarifications by the Devs requested.

[Davefevs]

Think more emphasis should be placed on pace / speed of the putt than in links. You could ram the putts in on Links.

There's been a fair amount of talk on other threads re course management.....and I consider putting to be in that context. There are times when players should be trying to cosy the putt up to the hole, especially on quick downhillers!

We need to make sure that for clickers there is enough time to click 3 times on short putts. Sometimes the swing meter is just too quick on the downswing to hit 6 oc.

We also need realistic lips.

As for aim, I quite like the concept of placing a marker at a point where you would like the ball the end up if the green were flat. So for an uphill left to righter, you would place the marker to the left and beyond the hole. Then assuming you have the skill to hit the right weight /power and hit the sweet spot your ball with travel based on your marker. If you've aimed correctly your ball should ave a chance of going in.

The aim of putting is to get the right weight for the right line.....any other ideas?

[Acrilix]

Putting is going to be very important to the game, and will ultimately decide the sort of scores that people will be able to put up. I would love to see the end of grids, but I know it is not going to happen (too many people are too comfortable with them, and won't want to change). IMO the BLI tool in Links 2003 to read the greens is a great method, and I'm sure could easily be improved upon.

There was talk of grain affecting the putts for the last Links mod - not sure if I would want this, but it would make putting more difficult.

Will wind affect putts?

It doesn't in Links, but it does in real life, and as the game is going to calculate the affects in real time then this could be a possibility for putting as well.

I'm sure their will be two schools of thought on putting. One side wanting it easy, and the other wanting it hard!   

[Davefevs]

I just want it real!

[Acrilix]

I just want it real!

 

Is 'real' easy or hard though?   

I expect it depends on who is taking the putt!! 

[Davefevs]

Real = not being able to stand over a 6 foot putt and slam it in without having to try.

[Dazmaniac]

Real = not being able to stand over a 6 foot putt and slam it in without having to try.

 

So you've never, ever, ever missed any short 6 foot putts in Links, because it was a given the ball would drop, lol?

 

The main problem Links has always had is the 'suck 'em in' cups. Putts that should have missed or even lipped out always seemed to get sucked in. Not sure if it was some trait of the APCD (especially with Links 2001 and 2003) but whilst there were occasional lipouts, the ball physics around the hole was lacking. Really hope PP can address this and give us realistic ball behaviour where putting is concerned.

 

[Davefevs]

So you've never, ever, ever missed any short 6 foot putts in Links, because it was a given the ball would drop, lol?
 
The main problem Links has always had is the 'suck 'em in' cups. Putts that should have missed or even lipped out always seemed to get sucked in. Not sure if it was some trait of the APCD (especially with Links 2001 and 2003) but whilst there were occasional lipouts, the ball physics around the hole was lacking. Really hope PP can address this and give us realistic ball behaviour where putting is concerned.
 

@daz - I didn't say I made them all.....just that you don't really need to think too hard about them. I'm 90% within 10 ft on OWGC and I get around in approx 25 mins, I.e. racing around. :-)

Out of interest Sergio is #1 putts gained against the field. He has made 428/480 within 10ft.....89%. I'm 29th in putts on OWGT.....he's #1.

Re the cups, I've had several approach shots that been sucked in on the low side at pace, that would never have gone in IRL.

[jedi_mike]

out of all the golf games ive played, i like the putting in golfstar the best.it has a line were u like to aim,there is a grid on the green but not color coded,but the gid moves like in wgt were the lines move slow/fast acording to the slope of the green,at the hole it wil ltell you if its uphill/downhill and how much.then its up to you to aim and hit.1 of the best things i like about it is that if u got a long putt, the camera will move higher so u can see the slope of the green and all the breaks that are there.i have not long started playing tw08 and the putting there to me for a 3 clicker kinda hard.imo its to small and moved to fast(for the shorter putts).maybe i just got a slow trigger finger...lol

[axe360]

No disrespect intended to the original poster but let's hope PG doesn't base anything here, off of TWO, that game bombed and for good reason..I mean how does a company that put out a pretty darn good golf game for a few years, try to build one in the future and have it be worse then a game they built in 2004. That's not a question, lol. I digress..

 

I will say one thing though, TWO had a bug for a while, that allowed anyone to SLAM PUTT.  The community had to fight like hell to get the Dev's to finally fix that. Of course, having 4 different putters for 3 click wasn't to kool either but like I said, it Bombed and for good reason...

 

Curious jedi, what level of 3 click were you using on 08 because I don't think on Novice that it's very fast but I do know it flies on Adv/expert...

 

I think good camera angles are a must and the freedom to move those cameras around easily would be good...

 

 

Don't mind me though, I am a lover of the TW's PC Series since 04 and that may come out sometimes. I am trying though to have an open mind...

[jedi_mike]

my bad on my last post, golfstar does have a  color grid, yes axe i tried out all the lvs and found that novice is to easy as well as 2click, and expert lv is way to hard.for me.so i use adv. not to slow and not to fast. but is a little fast for the short putts for me tho.i like a little bit of a test of my golfing skills but not so hard to were i miss the 6 by just a little and the ball goes all over.no fun in that.

maybe 1 of the devs will come in and say what ideas they have in mind.

[IanD]

Not sure myself what you want the Dev guys to come in and suggest.. have you not covered it all lol?

 

• Camera Control for Viewing
• Putting Power Control
• Grid Options

 

I'm trying to think "SIM" when applying the various aspects suggested here. Granted, it has to be a playable game, but it has to be realistic too. What many have suggested they don't like in other games, appear to be mainly ball physics and visuals.

 

Of the three topics above, are there any others that don't fall into those categories?

 

Camera Control for Viewing

 

Use of a common movement control would be good. Something familiar, allowing you to move yourself to anywhere on the green, should be available. Maybe holding the right mouse button and using the arrow keys or the ADWS keys, with an option to drop to 12-18inches as if in kneeling mode.

Keeps it simple.

 

Putting Power Control

 

The main contributor to this discussion really..

 

Do we change the way we control our ability to play this shot, compared to other shots on the course? I think we should.. it's a totally new game and a new meter or swing should be an option. The glove is off, so to speak to define what happens here.

 

Grid Options

 

Contentious.. there are no grids in real golf, but the ability to use them (or necessity) should be available. Like some games too though, the ability to turn them off or have them styled to suit, should exist.

 

You could argue AIM is in this section too. Using a marker was mentioned, but in real golf, we have no such thing, we visualise the putt and aim accordingly by adjusting ourselves. Like the current ALPHA BUILD, there is no marker. You move yourself left or right to aim..

 

The rest is down to the game, and to an extent, the Course too. The game needs to be able to lip out those putts too hard on a fast green, maybe even see them roll further from the cup, adding more risk to those overhit putts.

 

Whilst many other areas of the game are slightly personally adjusted by club, shaft, ball etc, putting is most likely to be a familiar theme for everyone. Course management is no longer a factor once on the green, it's now down to aim and power.

 

If we all went a putting green and stood 20ft away from a hole, and had a Pro with us, would he stand more chance holing it than we would..? How many of us would take more than two shots though..?

[mjhamilton113]

I see that some disagree with a four click system with putting but I believe it may be a good thing. Hitting putts thin or fat is possible to a certain degree and can cause severe or minor miss hits

[IanD]

Don't personally disagree with a 4 click system... providing it has the ability to adapt, to holding down the button and making it a 2/3 click system.

 

Holding down for power backswing and then releasing.. whilst ensuring you hold the following click, to release for fat or thin shank.. the more options on the swing style the better personally. This is where I believe the guys here at PP want to be.. making it as individual as possible.

[Kablammo11]

Guys, I would even be willing to putt with a 7 click-system, IF I were convinced that it offered a true replication of putting IRL

 

A real golfer is faced with 3 different woes for his putting (At least I was during my forays into advanced frustration)

 

1) Reading a putt - finding the line, focussing on details. Especially difficult for even putts without much slope either way. 

2) Aligning the club face - a.k.a. aiming. I stand over my ball, to what mark do I square my putter? 

3) Hitting the ball. Hitting the correct speed of a putt was actually harder for me than getting it going on the right line.

And fom these 3 issues we elegantly deduce the 3 elements of computer golf: Putting grid (1), Aimer (2) and Putt Meter (3). 

 

So, facoring in that any putting system needs to be quick to learn and use, yet very difficult to master, that the casual players will need a bit more help than I am willing to offer in my proposal, and finally and most importantly, that EASY PUTTING is the number one reason for ridiculously low scores in most if not all computer golf games, here is my humble submission of a fun yet challenging putting system:

 

[attachment=92:K11putting.jpg]

 

Click it to see it. Now allow me to explain:

 

1. A Dynamic Grid shows a lot of detail in the short distance, yet very little detail far away. It's easy to read nearby, for short putts, but the interval between grid lines becomes larger over distance. By changing the viewpoint, surveying his putt from behind the hole or from the side, the player may change the center of focus of the grid, being able to make out more detail along the line, but he will never have the visual help of a complete grid for medium-length or long putts and must build a composite grid in his mind by scouting for the line.

This, imo, matches the real experience of sussing out a putt line. The big picture is not offered to the player on a silver platter, as with regular putting grids, but needs to be amalgamated by gathering intel from different spots.

 

2. The Aimer should be kept on a leash. When aiming a putt IRL, the golfer uses hole diameters as a currency for short putts: A ball outside the left, right edge, inside left etc. For longer putts, we try to single out a little mark on the green close to us, which we use to align our putt face to the send the ball along the intended line. We don't aim two yards to the right of the hole over distance, because getting our putter face square to that imaginary, distant spot, can be very deceiving. So I propose to have the Aimer in PG locked to a maxium distance of 12 or 15ft (or closer for short putts).

 

3. Eew...how 20th Century, this Exponential Putt Meter looks so... classic! And by classic, I mean boring. Maybe it is, but that is the most precise computer replication of putting I can come up with. I always found putting with a circular sing meter to be wrong, not true to the putting stroke at all.

This horizontal Putt Meter, at leat, offers a take away to the right and a stroke to the left, as in real putting (... for righthanded players. It should be mirrored around for Lefties, of course). As you take the putter back, the little white ball starts moving to the right slowly at first, but speeds up the longer your putt is intended to be. Getting the right weight for a 15-footer is rather easy, but hitting a 60+ feet putt right is very hard. Same as in real golf.

Once the distance has been set, the little right ball travels back left and the player will have to stop it in the sweet spot circle. Again, it starts slowly and smoothly speeds up, accelerating into and through the sweet spot. Click! Mishits will be dealt with in true PC golf tradition, push and pull and distance penalty.

Yes, it's very classic. And also very realistic. Those into mouse swings (instead of clicks) can easily use the same system, actually moving their mouse horizontally as if they were swinging a putter.

Possible degrees of difficulty customization, both to make this system harder or easier, are obvious: Grid detail and intervals in the dynamic grid; max distance and size of the aimer; distance lines and numbers and swing speed on the Putt Meter.

 

Now, I entertain no illusion that any of my suggestions will be adopted by the Devs of PG, who certainly have their own visions and ideas about the entire putting system. And I trust them to come up with something good that will be completely different. But until there is some real progress to captivate our imagination (not a reproach), I might as well publish this - and be it for the rest of you to have a savage, juicy, yet mature and intelligent argument with me why this won't work at all. Have at it!

 

Thank you.

[Acrilix]

@K11 - I think all your points are spot on, though I personally hate grid lines of any kind on screen, as I find they detract from my immersion. I have not seen the dynamic grid idea before, but it should work great.   

For me the Links BLI method is still the best though, as it achieves the dynamic grid idea (you have to create a memory map in your mind of the correct line, as only the slope at the BLI is visible), and it also combines the equivalent of both the putting grid and the aimer into one simple device.  

...... and the linear (not quite) exponential putting meter is already the norm for 'powerstroke' on Links as well.   

[Kablammo11]

Thanks for your kind words and sorry about the very careless use of "exponential", Acrilix. You are of course mathematically correct, Sir! Not linear either, though. Anybody, send a postcard to Blue Peter for the right word. (Who is this Blue Peter?)

I agree about the grids, but I honestly don't see how some amount of green reading can be achieved without them. Perhaps, if the green texture and the heightmap grid were detailled enough in high def graphics, actual green reading might even be possible, fom just staring at the green.... ?

Not having played Links for 8 years now, I do not know what you mean by BLI or powerstroke standards (I'm sure the Devs do). Sound like a smallish grid connected to the aimer that makes only a portion of the putt visible at the time and that you use to scout for the big picture. I could totally live with that, though I feel that aiming your long putt should not allow you to click on a spot 40 feet away, seeing as this is not quite the reality that I remember from my golfing days and that it makes putting a bit too comfortable.

[michael morris]

i would like to see real time changes in green speeds. 

i play and watch alot of golf and conditions on golf courses change through out an 18 hole round.

maybe even weather through out a round where rain would slow down the green speed