48 replies to this topic

[Tigers Agent]

I like everything but the meter system. I've 3 clicked, advance and expert for many years. My meters have always been round and my biggest complaint

through the years has been the fact when you engage the meter there was no stopping it (unlike tru swingers). How would a tru-swinger engage a meter as

you describe?  There seems as always to not force the tru-swingers hand in putting. A round meter would act in the same manner as your "exponential"

meter. I would welcome a 4 click meter because I've always thought of the first click of three clicks as just the ignitor and two clicks after that are what really

makes your shot. an additional click would really be a challenge. I've never liked the idea of two choices for putting...either you TS or click. 

(my opinion only).

[Acrilix]

@K11 - The BLI operates pretty much as you say, but does not display a grid. It is an aiming pole that displays an arrow for slope direction at its base, and a thermometer rises and falls on the pole to indicate the degree of slope at that particular point. You then move the pole around until you have a 'mind map' of the complete putt, and then position the pole on a point along this 'read' to aim your putt. With practice, you can make accurate reads without the need for any grid display at all.

[IanD]

I'd enjoy the BLI option too.. can we name it so though.. ball lie indicator. As Acrilix states, when moving it, it would become your eye in understanding the green slope and would therefore be the only way for you to read the breaks. Hole Previews can be used in conjunction with better detailed green images too, thus giving you an idea of "best approach". That same Preview may be available throughout that hole too, for quick recall to those who choose not to study the putt too closely, but gain an approximate area of where they landed and their relationship to the hole.

[axe360]

!00% disagree with an "AIMER"!!   Unless it's ONLY for a Novice Level... A true golf sim is not going to have an Aimer for putting.. Unless like I say, it is for the easiest of settings/levels...  It's an arcade feature that should either only be for Training or the Novice.. The first time I ever seen one was when TWO implemented it and even they had it disabled for the Harder Levels...

 

Grids with the ability to toggle on or off, I agree with...

[IanD]

I wasn't advocating using the BLI as an aim device.. just purely as a way of removing the grid.. however, an option to have the grid could be handy for those who want it. I'd simply like the ability to turn it off too.. oh, and I guess if we do that, then we'd need an aimer for those who want it, and the ability to turn that off too..

[axe360]

Hi Ian I guess I should have quoted Kablammo as I was responding to his post about an "aimer". Apologies for that..

I agree with you on the grids.  Grid for all is fine with me,  as I don't see that as a real advantage, like I do with the Aimer.. Ability to toggle on and off though.

 

  I think it's ok to have an Aimer for the easiest of levels. I don't like the idea for the more difficult levels and I don't think it should even be there for the more difficult levels. I don't think WE should have the ability to turn it ON or OFF (accept for the easiest of levels) because then you will get players who play the harder levels with it ON and then you have a Very Unfair Advantage.. So I just think it shouldn't even be an option for the more difficult of levels... Now, that is of course if we have More Difficult Levels.. I don't even know about that..

 

I am all for options on most things but the only option for an aimer should be whether there will even be one for the Novice/easiest levels, or for training only...

 

As for an BLI (ball lie indicator) I like the one used for the PC Series, it's a ball/flag marker that tells you the elevation to the pin, wherever you are, greens, fairways etc.. Is that the best method? I don't know, but it could be one to build from? But we MUST have one!

Peace

[IanD]

Good to have options is what we're suggesting

 

I get the feeling there will be some form of Tournament Mode, which will create something for those participating in that Tournament, where you turn on / off the various abilities of functions. Maybe it shouldn't be limiting those playing at harder levels to play with aids, but simply allow them should they choose to do so. If no-one plays that Tournament, then the numbers decide which levels will become familiar and popular.

 

I digress though.. topic is Putting.

[Kablammo11]

No grief at all for not quoting me, axe. Healthy debate, but a small point of order, if I may:

 

Most posters are advocating features which they themselves wish to be included into the game, suited to their play style and priorities... which is absolutely fine, I do that as well. The Devs, though, need to build a game for all the players, including the dreaded noobs and fun-seeking casuals. I was trying to define a putting system (successfully or not is up to you) which is equally performant and gratifying for both the greenest of amateurs as for the ultimate, puritan Sim-fanatic. And possibly one that allows to be scaled up or down according to all different needs and, yet still be basically the same for everybody.

 

To wit: The Aimer. Some of you simply saw the letters forming "Aimer" and were totally against the idea based on past aimer traumata - albeit granting the casuals the generous option to be given one if so they wanted, ignoramus rabble that they are...(comic exageration to drive home the point, you elitists!) But I sense that you may have missed my point that the aimer (I should have named it the "Aligner", only reaches 12 or 15 ft away, representing a realistic visual reference of aim as used by real golfers putting on real greens in real life - a tuft of grass, a spike mark, a dry patch...

 

And it goes without saying that in the hardest play mode, without any visual helpers, the aimers, numbers, grids etc must be switched off. Andrew has stated as much so we can take that as a given and perhaps cogitate about non-brutal, intermediate or more relaxed playing modes?

[axe360]

There has to be an aimer for those who like to play golf 'games' analytically by way of numbers and cause/ effect (there are some people like us you know), and the option to hit and hope for those who prefer a sim type game with no available metrics on the fairway - depriving either camp deprives the game at the end of the day - options for all and if you don't like the idea of advantages then opt not to play with an aim arrow when you set up a game in the first instance......

 

I'll admit you may be more technical then I with some terminology but I didn't say anything about NO metrics on a fairway but I stick by my comments Tour Pro's Don't need to have an Aimer, that is an Arcade feature. Easier levels, yes, I'm fine with that, just don't know why a Tour Pro would need an Aimer to putt with? To arcadish. Use camera angles and elevation markers... Keep it Real..

 

P.S.  I probably should have specified that I was speaking about Online PP setup Tournaments, I agree with your comments in bold, if you want to be able to use that stuff in a game that you yourself setup, then that's kool. Of course I will never agree that an Aiming Marker for the hardest levels, for putting, is needed... Like you say though, options for all...

[axe360]

No grief at all for not quoting me, axe. Healthy debate, but a small point of order, if I may:

 

Most posters are advocating features which they themselves wish to be included into the game, suited to their play style and priorities... which is absolutely fine, I do that as well. The Devs, though, need to build a game for all the players, including the dreaded noobs and fun-seeking casuals. I was trying to define a putting system (successfully or not is up to you) which is equally performant and gratifying for both the greenest of amateurs as for the ultimate, puritan Sim-fanatic. And possibly one that allows to be scaled up or down according to all different needs and, yet still be basically the same for everybody.

 

To wit: The Aimer. Some of you simply saw the letters forming "Aimer" and were totally against the idea based on past aimer traumata - albeit granting the casuals the generous option to be given one if so they wanted, ignoramus rabble that they are...(comic exageration to drive home the point, you elitists!) But I sense that you may have missed my point that the aimer (I should have named it the "Aligner", only reaches 12 or 15 ft away, representing a realistic visual reference of aim as used by real golfers putting on real greens in real life - a tuft of grass, a spike mark, a dry patch...

 

And it goes without saying that in the hardest play mode, without any visual helpers, the aimers, numbers, grids etc must be switched off. Andrew has stated as much so we can take that as a given and perhaps cogitate about non-brutal, intermediate or more relaxed playing modes?

 

Very good sir, now that, I can agree with. I also should have said that for those who want to have these type aids for OFFLINE or NON-Tournament play, that's fine with me.. But I still don't think a Tour Pro needs to have the option to have and aiming marker.

I just don't think that if someone is playing an Online Tournament at the Hardest Level, I don't think they should be able to have these Arcadish Aids available...

 

Also, I don't believe an elevation marker is arcadish and I think it should be there for all play. Somethings, you just got to have..

[Acrilix]

I think there are obviously different opinions here about what an 'aimer' is. Every Tour Pro lines his putt up with something, whether physical or imaginary. How else could he ever hole anything? 

I don't see anything arcadey about it at all - you have to have some form of visual cue to aim your putt somewhere, even if it's just using the alignment of your feet (your feet then becoming the 'aimer')!

[axe360]

Obiviously. I don't think we need and arcadish "aimer" to line up a putt.. Just use the terrain and the cup, why would you need an artificial line to line up a putt?

Gr8 camera views and an elevation marker THAT DOES NOT DISPLAY ON THE GREEN but tells you the ball to pin elevation, should be all that is needed..

 

Never had one (aimer)  in the PC Series from 04 till now... Anyway, I certainly don't mean to argue .

 

Like I said earlier: If you want to have it as an option on the EASIER levels or for Training purposes, that's cool.. Why would a Tour Pro need it. I can choose an imaginary line with out one in the game, just fine...

 

TWO had a stupid thing that would paint a line for the path that your ball would take to the pin, temporarily and I thought that was arcadish as hell...

 

Anyway, I really am all for OPTIONS, I just have a hard time with ARCADE Features but I do TRY to keep an open mind...

[Acrilix]

I was certainly not talking about a line on the green to show the putting line when replying to K11's post, and I didn't think K11 was either, though I could be wrong. That sort of line in Links was called the putting assistant, and was only really there for beginners. The BLI is simply a pole to direct your aim at - you have to work the line out for yourself from the info you glean about the slopes. This is far better than any grid, IMO, and is certainly more aesthetic.

I'm sure grids will be in anyway, and I don't have a problem with people using them - I just don't want to see them at my end when playing online with someone who IS using them, as they make the graphics look tacky, and unrealistic. As do power bars and other stuff that should be hidden from view as much as possible until necessary, so we can concentrate on the beauty of the courses, and feel as though we are there.   

[axe360]

Ok, I agree whole heartedly, any type of "putting assistant" should only be there for beginners or training purposes.

I don't know about this BLI thing. Never had one of those in the Series. Here is a pic of what we do have and it disappears when you push down on your mouse button while using TS and I assume it disappears while using the clik meter, also..

 

This arrow/aiming marker was available all the way thru Expert, but grids were not.. So if you guy's are talking about something similar then yes, I am all for it, my bad as I never have played any other golf game accept TW's PC Series, I won't mention TWO...

 

 

 

Peace

[Razor]

Maybe I'm mising something here, but in real life golf I use an aimer. It is called a line on my ball that I position when I reset my ball after reading the green.

ray

[Maineah]

Maybe I'm mising something here, but in real life golf I use an aimer. It is called a line on my ball that I position when I reset my ball after reading the green.

ray

 

 

I vote for this!!!  this is how I line up IRL....  line up your putt with the line on the ball... then fire away!  ***also NO putt previews on any level higher than easiest**

[Kablammo11]

I used the little logo writing of the manufacterer to line my Spaldings up. But I lined that line up towards a visible irregularity on the green a few feet ahead of me, for longer putts at least, and not at the distant hole itself. It may be a little arrow, a short range alignment aid or a ball line... we might resign ourselves to the fact that total realism may not translate fully into computer golf putting.

Rather than forcing the issue of placing realism above everything else, I feel that "ease of use" and "speed of execution" should also be considered: I'm not keen on spending 2 minutes wandering around a virtual green for each putt, having to hunt for visual clues that my own, 3D eyesight would give me much faster IRL. I might do it now and then, but sometimes I feel more like just playing a quick round of golf...

 

But since we are talking about real techniques, I wonder if a "crouching-down-and-using-the-putter-shaft-as-a-vertical-reference"-button might be a viable option to help us reading the green? After all, there is talk of grass-tossing for wind assessment.

 

I must say, I do not envy the Devs for the task of condensing all of this - and also their own ideas - into a simple, easy-to-use putting system that is equally enjoyable to all brackets of players.