6 replies to this topic

[axe360]

This is not about CF so I put it in here to start a discussion..

 

Over at coursedownloads.com we design courses for TW's PC Series mostly for the 08 game.. What you have are 2 files when you build a course. 1 is called a tca file (the course architect) and the other is a tcr file (the course file). The designer is the owner of the TCA file and No one can get there hands on it unless the designer let's them...

 

It is up to the designer to get his course tested before release.. Over at the CGX site, they have a testing team, there not there to say how beautiful the course is, there only there to TEST the course for playability, pin locations, etc and for any defects that may be in the graphix, structures etc, also to make sure that it is as REAL as possible to the Real course... Unless it's a Fantasy course..

 

I have heard some talking about how a course would be Vetted here.. Well, the way it happens over at CS is that when a designer uploads his course, if it's crap, then people comment on it and it pretty much doesn't see very many downloads, we have a comments section for each course for the community to comment constructively about a course...

 

So I personally don't think we will need some Panel of who knows who would be on it because I guarantee that sooner or later, someone will say that someone on the panel is biased and that very well could happen, albeit unitentional.

 

So, I think that courses will naturally be either well received or not, just by how the community likes or dislikes each course...

 

This is just the way we have done it over there for years now and it seems to be very effective in weeding out the not so good courses along with the best of courses... Since these courses that the community makes will be FREE, there is really no harm if only a few like a course or many like it...

 

I may put out a course that only a handful of folks like and that's ok. I don't see needing a "panel" to vet courses, the community will let us know...

 

Just my thoughts... Anyone else got any?

[IanD]

Not sure what it is you are trying to suggest Axe360.. ?

 

We may see several sites startup that keep a database of courses released, although they may / may not host them. There may be some form of review rating that users of that site can rate each course 1-5 etc, or using another style of LIKE (facebook style) etc etc..

 

What I initially thought when I read your post, was that you felt you may not want certain courses reviewed or rated..?

 

Until we know more regarding the disclaimers and rights, I'm not so sure anything released into the public domain won't be subject to someone reviewing it. That may sound a little harsh if it isn't received well, but I doubt the ability to release anything isn't done so without further options. For example, if a read me is included that details the course is not designed for actual use in tournaments, or created for the sole purpose of a small group, then it would likely only receive merit for it's intended purpose.

 

There are alot more variables surrounding this area, than we can easily discuss at this time.

[Kablammo11]

Axe: Agreed, in principle. 

Your method would require a central location, where course files can be uploaded, rated and commented upon by the community: A course library. Who would run this? PP? Or, as in your example, some volunteers? MJ posted that he felt more inclined to let the community tackle this issue, rather than PP hosting it's own course library.

I did ask in another thread, I believe, not knowing what the common practice was, if there should be a vetting panel. These are tricky indeed, you will never be able to completely keep politics out of them, it's a systemic risk. Certainly, a grim and judicial body like the High Council of the Elders of Krypton, scrutinizing new designs with stern mien and furrowed brows, would be uncalled for. Then again, as you described with that testing team, some form of technical vetting would be helpful.

I believe that some form of "peer review" should be encouraged. It's important that at some stage, ideally before publication, somebody unbiased is brought in to check a design, as an outside consultant or as a sounding board. A fellow course designer, perhaps? Or any trusted golf friend. If warranted, that person could tell the designer frankly if something should be grossly out of whack - not in the sense of a beauty contest but in terms of plain, technical gameplay. Let's call it "Proofreading", and it's a normal and useful procedure for every creative process. It would be up to the designer, though, to have his work proofread.

 

I'm not really worried about any of this. It's a new game with new challenges and new problems and new people involved- we do not necessarily need to have all the answers now. These will come to us, as the project grows, and we will work things out in good faith.

[Acrilix]

Nothing has yet been said by PP about the course release system.

Questions of whether the Course Forge is going to be a free tool or something we have to pay extra for have still remained unanswered.

Courses for sale may need a completely different system than courses offered for free.

Unless the Course Forge itself is free, I have no intentions of designing courses for Perfect Golf anyway, as I'm not interested in selling my courses, and can easily satisfy the design side of my golf hobby with Links 2003 and APCD.

 I've stated my thoughts against vetting in another thread, but at present, until we are given more information on everything I'm not that bothered what system is employed.   

[axe360]

Thank you Kablammo. @Ian I don't say I don't want some courses reviewed/rated. It will happen naturally as the community downloads each course, they will play it and come back and make comments on it and maybe rate it, (although I don't like a rating system, we have that at CS now). I'm not talking about comments like, the water was not flat, or there were tears/seams on the fairway or the greens were not very smooth, floating objects etc,  no, those should be caught in Testing.. I'm saying AFTER the course is released to the community, They will review/rate/comment on the course..

 

Over at CS, when I finish a course, I have several people  test my course thoroughly, several times, believe me, I test my courses as I go but it is very easy to miss things. So I have several testers and I Always have to go back, fix things and have it retested and repeat until I think it's perfect..  I also will put out a thread open to Any one who wants to help in testing my courses... There not testing to say, ooh, I love the course its so beautiful, no, there testing to give me hard feedback on any errors, greens to steep, tee's not flat, ball doesn't hold the green on very dry conditions, etc etc.. But I do have testers that I will have just tell me if the plantings look right, are out of place or overplanted etc..

 

If you guy's want to have some sort of committee  to Test Only these courses for mistakes, that's gr8! If you want to have a committee to say whether they LIKE The course enough to let the community have it, then I don't know about that.. I think anyone who does all the hard work to design a course, whether it be Real or Fictional, should be able to upload his course for the entire community after thorough testing of course but who will oversee that? Whether it is received well or not, will depend SOLEY on the designers work.. A designer HAS to be responsible for his/her course build..None of the folks who run CS (coursesource.com) make the judgement whether a course is worthy of releasing to the community or not, like I said, release crappy courses and no one will like them..

I feel that this is what helps designers learn and get better, by having there course out there for ALL to see.. Like I said, if it's not a very good course, then he or she will hopefully learn by the communities CONSTRUCTIVE comments about the course and then will improve the next time..

 

The community will NOT be out anything will they?

Is anyone hurt by this? NOPE! The course was free to download and the feedback would be invaluable..

 

I'm just saying, we have no need for a  Panel of the High Gods, vetting courses, that IMO could lead to ego's getting in the way..

 

Now, I LOVE to have my courses reviewed by whomever wishes, that is feedback that is a MUST IMO for a designer to grow...  There are several spin off sites that use some of my courses and some folks like them and some folks don't... They are free to review and post any comments they want but in the end, if it isn't a good course, then people won't play it... Still, no one is hurt by it if someone does put out a crappy course, you just delete it and move on... That's why AFTER a course has been released, community constructive feedback is a must!!

 

Of course however the "community" decides to handle this, I'm sure the majority will rule... That's also fine by me, if We decide a "panel" is the way to go, then so be it.

A good designer in my opinion, will never be reluctant to put his/her courses out there for All to play/review, whatever, there's always something that can be learned.

 

As long as ALL FEEDBACK is given in a respectful way, I have seen some very disrespectful comments made from time to time and that can really keep a person from designing, especially when they are brand new to designing.. WE over at CS, NEVER allow it and if it get's in, it is taken out immediately and the commenter is warned..

 

Just saying, it doesn't hurt to have the designer be the sole responsible party as to whether his/her course was a hit or not...The community will let them know...

 

Well, thank you for your replies and I'm sure we will all have an opportunity to figure the best way out to do all of this.. That's fine with me, just giving a little insight to how things have worked for us that are over there designing courses everyday for the TW's PC Series... Room for improvement on that system, sure.. Room for an all new system, we will see... Look forward to it...   I am ALWAYS willing to listen to new and innovative ideas...

 

P.S. In reply to Acrilix, I will NEVER pay for courses nor would ever sell courses.. I do this cause I enjoy it... Nor will I pay for CF...

[IanD]

Some great words there Axe360, and I certainly respect your opinions..!

[axe360]

Thank you sir, likewise.

I wasn't intending on being so long winded, I certainly hope others will join the discussion, doesn't hurt to talk...