35 replies to this topic

[Mike Jones]

Joe Habiger, on 09 Jul 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

WRONG... Do me a favor, take a backswing and then go slower than your backswing. You actually hit the ball pretty straight...

4X faster is in some other games but not this one, I just played a couple rounds last night so I know this is false.

 

Your swing is much faster than mine apparently, please do not tell me how fast I should swing. I swing faster in the other game I play because it's a smoother mouse control, I can work the ball with the mouse and not so here because of the tempo open/closed clubface requirement.

 

Personally I could give a rats *** about what a pro hits, I am not a pro..

Just FYI the pause at the top is counted as backswing time so if you pause for a while you can swing down a little slower if that's your thing, I know it's not mine as it doesn't work for me and I start to hit it sideways as I lose my rhythm.

 

Not sure what you mean regarding not being able to 'work' the ball with the mouse - the difference with PG is that we model the clubface and swingpath rather than just the swingpath which is what you're used to. This gives the option for a much wider and more realistic range of shots, if you look at the mouse swing tutorial guide on Steam you will see how to curve the ball around at will. 

[pgadesertrat]

Mike Jones, on 09 Jul 2015 - 5:41 PM, said:

" the difference with PG is that we model the clubface and swingpath rather than just the swingpath which is what you're used to. This gives the option for a much wider and more realistic range of shots"

Sorry Mike but I have to disagree with this statement.  The clubface position at impact (degree opened/closed) as well as contact position on the clubface is in fact accounted for in the WGC mouse swing based on a complex vector path comparison of both swing planes (back/down).  It's not just a simple X/Y point to point directional comparison, the entire path is calculated.  Additionally, the rate of acceleration thru impact zone is also calculated in WGC which allows the player full control of distance and backspin rate.  There isn't any acceleration variable in PG so club distance is almost entirely dependent upon length of backswing, once that is set there's nothing you can do during the downswing to further control distance.

 

Here's a real world reference.  Go out to your local practice range, pull out a pitching wedge and hit a few 90 to 100% effort swings.  Now hit a few more with the same full length backswing but employ a lazy, dead handed downswing at say 70% of your normal full downswing.  Hit a few more at 40 to 50%.  Even though the length of your backswing was the same for all shots, as you reduced your downswing acceleration 2 things should have happened.  1st and obvious impact would be the carry distance and 2nd the amount of backspin applied to the golf ball. 

 

The reality is that pretty much any shot shape (pull hook, pull, pull slice, straight, push hook, push, push slice) can be reproduced in both golf sims, it's just that each requires a much different approach.  However, I would really like to see the PG motion swing modified to introduce some much needed feel.  Right now it reminds me of the RTS approach in Links which exhibited the same limitations.

[Mike Jones]

I don't see the comparison with Link's RTS it's actual nothing like it apart from it uses a mouse. The clubface and swing path were both controlled by the swing path of the mouse which strikes me as being very limiting much like the WGT implementation.

 

In real golf the clubface and swing path are different variables controlled by different aspects of the swing and the difference between them is the primary factor in the real world ball flight laws. I'm not sure an implementation that bundles them together could be seen a realistic. I will however grant you that it would be nice to be able to influence the power with the forward mouse swing and maybe there is a way we can implement that too.

[Joe Habiger]

JoeF, on 09 Jul 2015 - 1:40 PM, said:

You really need to get your facts straight, Joe.  From the tutorial on motion swing:

 

 

I was not telling you how fast you should swing, I was trying to tell you how the swing timing functions in PG since you have an obvious misconception about it as per your posts.  I have no problem working the ball in PG, it just takes practice and an understanding of this games' swing fundamentals.  

 

I used to play "the other game" as well and could work the ball in that game, too.  And yes, you have to swing faster in that game.

 

JoeF and Buck, Joe forsure I know you play MS so quoting a tutorial section makes no sense because if you have played this game with the mouse you know the tutorial is wrong and Mike told me it needed to be updated the same day I got this game in alpha/beta many months ago. You cannot swing 4 times faster of it goes WAY *********** left.. You have to pretty much have the same speed backswing and follow through to hit the magic straight shot. TEMPO, Not SPEED.... 

 

I don't need to get into a pissing competition.

 

Mike I don't pause at the top but I swing slower because that is the only way to hit a straight shot, I can't curve the ball in game as consistently as I can in WGC. It can be done but when you're worried about how ****** far left or right it's going to go because your tempo is now off it's hard to concentrate. Know what I mean? To many things to think about and worry about in a swing is not good and you of all people should know this since your or we're a pro golfer.

 

I am not trying to turn this into World Golf Challenge either.

[Mike Jones]

Joe Habiger, on 10 Jul 2015 - 12:17 AM, said:

JoeF and Buck, Joe forsure I know you play MS so quoting a tutorial section makes no sense because if you have played this game with the mouse you know the tutorial is wrong and Mike told me it needed to be updated the same day I got this game in alpha/beta many months ago. You cannot swing 4 times faster of it goes WAY *********** left.. You have to pretty much have the same speed backswing and follow through to hit the magic straight shot. TEMPO, Not SPEED.... 

 

I don't need to get into a pissing competition.

I'm sorry Joe you are wrong on this point as stated above in my reply re: pausing at the top of the swing. There is no need to update the mouse swing tutorial as the way it works hasn't changed.

[Joe Habiger]

Sorry, guess what you said the first day I got this game is just mute and I'm referring to the 4x faster than backswing part not the pause. I have the smallest pause at the top and you have to have a slight pause or the swing doesn't work.

[Mike Jones]

Joe Habiger, on 10 Jul 2015 - 01:22 AM, said:

Sorry, guess what you said the first day I got this game is just mute and I'm referring to the 4x faster than backswing part not the pause. I have the smallest pause at the top and you have to have a slight pause or the swing doesn't work.

I think you must have misunderstood, perhaps you remember our conversation regarding CourseForge where the old tutorials are now outdated as we have continued to develop it.

 

The backswing/downswing ratio in PG has always been 1:4. The backswing timing includes whatever pause you do have, in your case you say it's small. The timing is set in the code and there is no doubt at all it's a 1:4 ratio no matter what it feels like to you.

[Joe Habiger]

Again, don't need to get into a pissing contest because i'll never win against a dev. I know what I am seeing and it's not 1:4 either.

[pgadesertrat]

Mike Jones, on 08 Jul 2015 - 4:20 PM, said:

"It only happens when you go very slowly - 3 seconds is an age to swing a golf club so just speed your overall motion up a little."

 

Mike, there has to be something else that causes the top/flub shot.   I just played a round with Joe and was purposely swing much quicker than normal trying a new rhythm.  Normally, I never experience the topped shot but in this round I had 4 of them!  Again, every swing was much less than 3 seconds.  

 

Thanks, interested to see what else causes this result.

[Richard]

 

pgadesertrat, on 10 Jul 2015 - 02:32 AM, said:

 

Mike, there has to be something else that causes the top/flub shot.   I just played a round with Joe and was purposely swing much quicker than normal trying a new rhythm.  Normally, I never experience the topped shot but in this round I had 4 of them!  Again, every swing was much less than 3 seconds.  

 

Thanks, interested to see what else causes this result.

 

 

Joe Habiger, on 10 Jul 2015 - 02:28 AM, said:

Again, don't need to get into a pissing contest because i'll never win against a dev. I know what I am seeing and it's not 1:4 either.

 

Guys, would it help to make you concern more apparent to capture your swing via video and post it?

[Justin9926]

When I first started playing the MS I had many duff shots. But what I was doing, when I would click the mouse I was moving the Meter maybe one or 2% off the zero not realizing it. That was enough to start the timer so If I didn't start my swing right away it didn't matter how fast I would go with my swing.I hope that makes sense to you?

[mebby]

Joe Habiger, on 10 Jul 2015 - 02:28 AM, said:

Again, don't need to get into a pissing contest because i'll never win against a dev. I know what I am seeing and it's not 1:4 either.

So how do you KNOW it's not 1:4?  Just curious.  Not trying to provoke you - I'm genuinely curious as to why you think it's not a 1:4 ratio.

 

I've spent quite a bit of time on the range in the game and TO ME... it feels like it's a 1:4 ratio.  I know before I even complete my swing if I'm way off one way or another.  I watch the mouse move more than anything.  I try to make it go forward at 4X the pace that it went backwards.

 

Also - while you're on the range it tells you the ratio of your back/forward swing.  If the 1:4 ratio didn't matter they wouldn't put the feedback out there for you.

[pgadesertrat]

Richard, on 10 Jul 2015 - 03:12 AM, said:

 

"Guys, would it help to make you concern more apparent to capture your swing via video and post it?"

 

Hey Richard, I'm simply asking one of the devs to list any factors other than the -3 second timing that would cause a topped shot.  It would be useful to know this info, especially when attempting to execute non-standard shots like an extreme hook or cut, and should be added to the Mouse Swing guide.  Mike or Andrew would know exactly what is called out in the swing script.

 

I tried replicating the flubbed shots in practice mode and made sure they were not caused by slow swing time (used very quick swing of 1 sec, maybe less).  It seems like an extremely fast tempo (.11 or .10) combined with severe contact miss-hit on toe/heel is what can also cause the dreaded topped shot.  

 

Again, I'm asking the devs directly for precise causes because they will know and this info can be helpful to other users.  

[MetaWhirledPeas]

Joe Habiger, on 08 Jul 2015 - 4:49 PM, said:

Why not have that 3 second rule turn into a 4-5 second rule especially if you introduce swinging slightly faster on the downswing like it should be. Some have a slow swing like (Bob Murphy) some have a fast swing like Nick Price. You introduced tempo for a reason but let players decide how slow or fast they want to swing. Many people have faster DPI mice as well, I have to turn mine down because your sensitivity only goes to 2..lol

 

I would think the 3-second rule helps as an anti-cheat measure. If you reduced your mouse to a ridiculously low sensitivity, you would be able to count out the beats like a drummer in a jazz band, leading to near perfect tempo every time. With a 3-second rule it encourages people to be quick about it.

 

The motion swing is a necessarily imperfect way of mimicking a golf swing. Truth be told, it's possible to hit solid golf shots without any backswing at all (look it up... there are some weird instructors who teach this). The real tempo is in the unwinding of the body, and the movement of your hips in relation to your arms, shoulders, hands, and legs. It's really way too much to mimick with a mouse.

[MetaWhirledPeas]

Mike Jones, on 09 Jul 2015 - 11:03 PM, said:

I don't see the comparison with Link's RTS it's actual nothing like it apart from it uses a mouse. The clubface and swing path were both controlled by the swing path of the mouse which strikes me as being very limiting much like the WGT implementation.

 

In real golf the clubface and swing path are different variables controlled by different aspects of the swing and the difference between them is the primary factor in the real world ball flight laws. I'm not sure an implementation that bundles them together could be seen a realistic. I will however grant you that it would be nice to be able to influence the power with the forward mouse swing and maybe there is a way we can implement that too.

 

As long as you keep tempo as a big factor As I believe you guys mentioned, the tempo helps counteract the straight edge cheese, plus it's a nice stand-in for real-world golf swing tempo.

 

What would be nice (and its omission might be intentional) is for a little golf ball marker to be placed onscreen at the point you start your backswing, so that there's a target to aim at when you start your forward swing. My guess is this was omitted to make it more of a "feel" experience, but other things (like the swing meter) are already interfering with that anyway. Judgment call, I guess.

[Mike Jones]

pgadesertrat, on 10 Jul 2015 - 3:04 PM, said:

Hey Richard, I'm simply asking one of the devs to list any factors other than the -3 second timing that would cause a topped shot.  It would be useful to know this info, especially when attempting to execute non-standard shots like an extreme hook or cut, and should be added to the Mouse Swing guide.  Mike or Andrew would know exactly what is called out in the swing script.

 

I tried replicating the flubbed shots in practice mode and made sure they were not caused by slow swing time (used very quick swing of 1 sec, maybe less).  It seems like an extremely fast tempo (.11 or .10) combined with severe contact miss-hit on toe/heel is what can also cause the dreaded topped shot.  

 

Again, I'm asking the devs directly for precise causes because they will know and this info can be helpful to other users.  

If your offset value is high enough ie the mishit to toe or heal you won't get a very nice result from your shot. The easiest way to see exactly what is happening on your swings is to go on the practice ground and use the launch monitor on there.