16 replies to this topic

[frank70]

Hi there, my name is Frank and i'm from Germany. I have been lurking for months now and decided to sign up to discuss this very interesting and intriguing project. As you would suspect, English of course isn't my native language. So in advance: Sorry for any mistakes.

 

The subject i want to discuss is AI scoring in golf games. The term immersion has been used in a lot of different threads and topics. For me a very important part of computer golfing is taking part in a tour (almost certainly, there will not be PGA Tour with real names and characters in the game because of licensing costs and the contract EA has with the PGA). My hope is, that perfect parallel puts time into creating a career mode, where all the parameters (Tour schedule, Fedex Cup, World Rankings, maybe a wec.com tour) are represented. If it would be customizable, i'm sure the community will come up with real tournament schedules and realistic player rosters.

 

And now for the scoring: rubber band scoring is often used as a term related to Tiger Woods games. There simply isn't put enough work into developing a realistic scoring formula. I see two possibilities to recreate realistic AI scoring:

 

Statistic based scoring:

- every player has a base score for a round of golf which simply is his average scoring on the PGA Tour

- better would be the average scoring divided in par 3, par 4 and par 5 scoring

- these averages decide the possiblity of making birdie, par or bogey

- the base score would be influenced by factors like (only a few, more are imaginable):

• difficulty of the hole (must be determined before the round)
• weather condition and conditions of the course
• form (last results as a factor)
• aggressivness of player (more agression results in more birdies, but can result in more bogeys or double bogeys as well)
• temper and or confidence: How a player reacts to a bad start of a round, or a good.
• health (lingering injury) or fatigue (fourth or fifth tournament in a row?)

 

Golf simulator:

There is already a text based golf sim on the market. The outcome of every shot is calculated based on ratings of the players in different shot categories.

This outcome could be influenced by

• width of fairway, slope of fairway, shot shaping required yes or no
• length of iron shots
• width and depth of the green
• slope and severity of breaks on the green
• length of putt
• etc.

 

This is not a complete list, but i think we could discuss some of these points. It would be a great enhancement to the game, to have realistic AI scoring. I'm so tired of scores like 65-66-65-66  or 61-82-62-80.

 

What are your thoughts? And to the developers: Is there any plan to implement a career mode?

[Davefevs]

I think you are spot on. There are masses of stats out there....just look at the PGA tour website. Factoring those stats into a model with an element of randomness would give the ability to produce realistic scoring and therefore create a realistic tour.

I hadn't discounted a PGA tie-in, but you're probably right due to EA.

[Davefevs]

To the devs.....the above response was massively simplistic, but you know where I'm coming from!!!

[mjhamilton113]

Frank. Welcome and thank you for saying exactly what I have thinking and hoping for since day one.

Every single thing you mentioned is on my wish list and quite honestly could bring this from being a good game to great. There has never really been a golf game that has taken all of your thoughts into full perspective. I especially like the idea of adding weather conditions, course conditions, and difficulty of the course into play. Never has a golf game added slope or rating or other difficulty ratings into play. With Links you almost had to fudge the settings of where you played, conditions, or difficulty of settings to make a US Open sim. I would really be curious to see if the above things mentioned would allow this to be done naturally.

Obviously a 6400 yard course will be easier to score on then a 7400 yard course and the same could be said for a course with a 120-70.5 slope- rating compared to a 145-74.5. I really hope this is integrated into the game.

[Davefevs]

I still remember Tim Herron shooting a 58 on Links on one of the tours I used. The scoring was bizarre.

[frank70]

It would be great to have a tool, where you can add or subtract factors by yourself. So everybody could determine which or how many factors determine the score for AI players on every hole (this of course should be the starting point: Every hole should be calculated. I drivable par 4 should generally lead to lower scores than a 500 Yards par 4). And it should be possible to determine which weight the single factors have. Maybe some users would like to emphasize form or temper - some would like to keep randomness low and let the tour statistics decide.

 

And the best of all: It would be nothing more than a excel calculation. So i think it would be quite doable to implement it into the game.

 

P.S.: regression with age (from year to year, progression (thinking of Jordan Spieth), slumps (thinking of Henrik Stenson) would be nice elements too.

- another thinkable aspect would be, to make the swingmeter sligtly more forgivable, if the user is riding a hot streak, or the opposite, be more punishing, when beeing in a slump.

[Acrilix]

- another thinkable aspect would be, to make the swingmeter sligtly more forgivable, if the user is riding a hot streak, or the opposite, be more punishing, when beeing in a slump.

 

I really don't like this idea. If a player is on a hot streak it is because his current skills, reactions or judgement are making it easier for him to perform. To make it even easier by having a forgivable swingmeter would be unfair on everyone else. To also punish someone who is struggling by making them struggle more would be equally ridiculous. PLEASE DON'T DO THIS.

[frank70]

I really don't like this idea. If a player is on a hot streak it is because his current skills, reactions or judgement are making it easier for him to perform. To make it even easier by having a forgivable swingmeter would be unfair on everyone else. To also punish someone who is struggling by making them struggle more would be equally ridiculous. PLEASE DON'T DO THIS.

I meant this for offline only. And of course optional.

[frank70]

Revolutionary thinking:

Even Links 2003 had the possibility to play against a cpu Opponent on screen.

May it be even possible to let all AI participients of an tournament actually play the course in the background - based on the ratings they have for different shots?

The outcome of the shots could be calculated in the shot preparation time of the user and additionally if neccesary in between holes. Sometimes it takes a lot of seconds sometimes clearly more than a minute to take a shot for the user. A lot of time for the computer to calculate in the background. 

I don't know how long it would take to let approximately 140 AI players play the course in the backround. Obviously no rendering of graphics is needed.

This solution would mean, that the AI opponents really play under exactly the same conditions.

[mjhamilton113]

That would be fascinating

[Andrew]

Our goal is to do everything right.  We may not have everything done on day 1.  One of the advantages of not being tied to a publisher is that we dont have a functionality set that is in the game and then we just implement something half assed just to get it in.  Our initial release will I am sure dissappoint because it will have limited functionality.  But once we decide to add something into the next release it will be done properly.  To us AI means not just a computer player but AI players on a golf course.  We always like to look at how FPS games work and look at adapting some of that into our games.  The reality is when you are playing golf there are always others on the golf course too.  Those AI players will shout FORE if they hit onto another fairway etc.  

As for tournament modes Career (online and offline), Locally Managed Country Clubs, are all on the development sheet.  Once we have our first release out we will be looking at functionality to be introduced into the next release.  We will then invite everyone here to comment on it suggest functionality etc. 

[frank70]

That is great to hear. Step by step - of course.

Maybe we can gather some good ideas in the forum for realistic Ai scoring and AI play on the course.

[Dazmaniac]

I think a basic platform to start with for the game is a good idea. Then the game can be developed using the Dev's ideas and also the feedback from the community. With the depth of background both the Dev's and the community have, coming from various golf games, this will be the opportunity to make Perfect Golf the game we have all wanted to have.

 

As they say, Rome wasn't built in a day.

[Ron Piskorik]

Our goal is to do everything right.  We may not have everything done on day 1.  One of the advantages of not being tied to a publisher is that we dont have a functionality set that is in the game and then we just implement something half assed just to get it in.  Our initial release will I am sure dissappoint because it will have limited functionality.  But once we decide to add something into the next release it will be done properly. 

I will not be disappointed with an initial release that has limited functionality.  I am very optimistic that PP has the desire to have a golf game that will eventually revolutionize computer golf.  The anticipation of what will be in the next update will keep me interested in the game for a long time.  I look forward to a golf game that actually continues to evolve. 

[Brucey Mc]

Lets just go hit a few shots and worry who's buying the beer at the end later 

[karma4u]

I'm with Bruce.........

[Brucey Mc]

In that case I'll have a pint of Blue Moon, don't worry about the chunk of orange!