30 replies to this topic

[Kablammo11]

To me, the need to select a 'natural swing' just shows how bad the click method simulates real golf. If it did a good job everyone would have a natural game swing.

Clicking is, after all, really nothing but a reaction test in most golf games. Real golf is nothing like a reaction test. It is more about coordination and rhythm.

Maybe multiple swing meters running at the same time (eg. for distance, CHS and snap), that you have to stop individually are the answer! That would be a far better simulation of the complexities of a real golf swing.    

 

Good points all.

But let's not kid ourselves into believing that any method of swinging in computer golf is more than just an imperfect simplification of the real thing. Though, arguably, true-swinging gets a bit closer to it than clicking. And of course, those playing in a simulator get quite close to it. But for everybody sitting in front of his PC, reality is quite far away, no matter if they click or shove a mouse across the table.

 

Still, this is a very good thread, rich in very nourishing food for thought. I do hope the devs are following this.

I'm tempted to backtrack to one of my earliest click proposals: Not to have any swing meter at all, but to click on the player avatar (as seen on the screen executing a swing) to define the shot. It could even be made a bit more difficult than I suggested then: First click on the hips to start the backswing, 2nd click on the shoulders to start the downswing and 3rd click on the ball to determine the snap (give or take a few pixels)

It's been some time ago, but here is the video for those who wish to look it up. The white lines are visual helps that can be toggled off: 

 

Methinks that this might still be a smart way to unleash a swing...

[fungolfer]

I just keep smiling when I read "natural swing". It would be natural if you would have a stick in your hands. As long as it is a mouse (no matter if you move it up and down or simply click a button) it's simply lightyears away from any kind of natural swing. Just realize that this is a game and NOTHING can make it close to the experience on a golf course. I never played real golf. I only was on a driving range once for about 20 Minutes, but nothing what ever I do with my mouse is natural.

I hope PG will simply give us options on what we want to play and how we want to play. But please stop the "as real as possible" stuff here.

Remember PG will be a game!

[bortimus]

Dammit K11 if you keep coming up with great ideas this game will never get released!! Kidding of course.  Very nice video showing your ideas.  

Something that immediately struck me as the click mechanic for the avatar swing would be a 4 click swing, grouped into a click-hold-release backswing, and click-hold-release downswing.

First click the clubhead and hold as the backswing reaches desired height, release and immediately click the hips/lower body to initiate the downswing.  Hold this last click (creating lag/maintaining leverage)  until in the hitting zone and release!

I like the symbolism of holding that last click to represent maintaining the leverage and not casting the clubhead early.

 

Some may prefer the last release being an actual click as opposed to a release of the mouse button, so...

First (click and hold) on the clubhead to start the backswing.  When it reaches desired the height,  release the click a the hips/lower body to initiate the downswing.  The final click would be at the hitting zone.  More of a traditional 3 click as you mentioned earlier

 

Now to add  another timing element to all of this, the transition from the backswing to the downswing can be optimized with correct timing to add power to the shot.  Not sure how this would be done...

[Dazmaniac]

If PG can offer 'real time' swings when clicking (with or without an animation) then the clip K11 refers to is well worth investigating IMO, as far as swing development goes. Something like this couldn't be done in Links 2003, as the swing-meter and animation worked separately, as you made the swing on the swing-meter, the game calculated where the shot was going (so dynamic cam could be used) and then the animation made the swing.

 

Something like K11's example brings clicking a little nearer to our Power Stroking and Tru/RealTime Swinging compadre's. This was one reason in Links 2003 that the dynamic cam couldn't be used with RTS, as the swing was real time and didn't offer the game the opportunity to quickly calculate the outcome of the shot to allow the dynamic camera to position itself.

 

With how PP have explained how their shot data is captured/applied in the sim, hopefully a type of dynamic cam could be an option for all swing types.

 

[shimonko]

First click the clubhead and hold as the backswing reaches desired height, release and immediately click the hips/lower body to initiate the downswing.  Hold this last click (creating lag/maintaining leverage)  until in the hitting zone and release!
I like the symbolism of holding that last click to represent maintaining the leverage and not casting the clubhead early.

I think such a procedure could negatively affect people's swing in real life if they played a lot of PG. 

[Kablammo11]

Dammit K11 if you keep coming up with great ideas this game will never get released!! 

 

Just rehashing an old idea, bortimus. And the longer they keep me waiting for the real thing, the more I'm going to pester them with my incoherent brainfarts. This here is about the 3rd or 4th swing meter debate in a bit more than a year, and I'm a veteran of them all… So there's always a bit of déjà-vu going on, but this one here contains new ideas like your dynamic sweet spot… 

 

What got me thinking, this time around, was Acrilix' correct observation that a click swing was basically a reaction test. That can't be helped, I suppose, and will always be the case, but maybe the process can be guided away from a simple "speed" reaction, exclusively defined by eye-hand-coordination, towards a more complex challenge based on rhythm and coordination. And that's what brought me back to my old idea of the avatar rhythm method. 

 

And here is its latest iteration:

Click on this lovely orange text to see it.

 

With such an approach, the clicker would have to move the mouse and place it within specific areas - in addition to just clicking. And he would need to time all 3 clicks, the 2nd being quite fiendish, since if he misses that, his swing plane gets out of whack. So what's new in this model is that there is a mouse movement and aiming added to the timed clicking: A more rhythmic activity.

(I tried to shadow-click this a few time with my fingers, holding the button, shifting the cursor. It's not easy and needs quite a bit of practice).

 

Truth time: There still will be a stupid, simple, classic 3Click swing meter in the game. It's just a staple of the game, a commercial imperative, and the casuals would be quite overwhelmed by the level of this debate, let alone by most of the swing meter suggestions made here. Heck, myself I will even use the classic meter, whenever I feel like relaxing. It's a game, after all, and games must be fun to play.

But what I find passionating is the opportunity to wonder out aloud: Is this an opportunity to take something that seems given and set in its ways -  and to propel it to the next level? I don't know what that next level will look like. I can't even be sure there is one at all. But I enjoy asking myself.

[HeavySwinger]

Good points all.

But let's not kid ourselves into believing that any method of swinging in computer golf is more than just an imperfect simplification of the real thing. Though, arguably, true-swinging gets a bit closer to it than clicking. And of course, those playing in a simulator get quite close to it. But for everybody sitting in front of his PC, reality is quite far away, no matter if they click or shove a mouse across the table.

 

Still, this is a very good thread, rich in very nourishing food for thought. I do hope the devs are following this.

I'm tempted to backtrack to one of my earliest click proposals: Not to have any swing meter at all, but to click on the player avatar (as seen on the screen executing a swing) to define the shot. It could even be made a bit more difficult than I suggested then: First click on the hips to start the backswing, 2nd click on the shoulders to start the downswing and 3rd click on the ball to determine the snap (give or take a few pixels)

It's been some time ago, but here is the video for those who wish to look it up. The white lines are visual helps that can be toggled off: 

 

Methinks that this might still be a smart way to unleash a swing...

I like some of these advanced ideas like clicking on the golfer to initiate swings.  How about clicking on the golfer to setup swings like moving the feet to setup draws or fades or hitting down on the ball or scooping the ball.  Another idea, introduce a curved swing as an alternative to Real Time Swing, Powerstroke or Trueswing to eliminate setting up mouse drivers or straight edges as swing aids.  Curving the swing less would generate an inside-out swing and curving more would generate an outside-in swing.

[axe360]

I like some of these advanced ideas like clicking on the golfer to initiate swings.  How about clicking on the golfer to setup swings like moving the feet to setup draws or fades or hitting down on the ball or scooping the ball.  Another idea, introduce a curved swing as an alternative to Real Time Swing, Powerstroke or Trueswing to eliminate setting up mouse drivers or straight edges as swing aids.  Curving the swing less would generate an inside-out swing and curving more would generate an outside-in swing.

 

 

This is perhaps one of the most talked about things in TS, CHEATERS.. Never mind that there are cheats out there for 3 click. I myself feel like those that cheat are far less then those that do. I like having to have that mouse as straight as possible to hit a good shot as you progress up to the expert ( swing difficulty level), easier to hit a good shot on the lower (novice swing difficulty level). So there is the first argument for folks that think anyone that is any good at this, must be using a straight edge. I don't know if that will ever stop, from just a few..

 

So let's say that most of us play fair, having  progressively harder (swing difficulty levels), Novice being the easiest to hit a good ball and expert being the hardest, I found this works gr8!  When I first started TSwinging at TW 04 PC, I played on the Novice Swing Difficulty level for a long time before I moved up to the intermediate, and ultimately the Adv/exepert Swing Difficulty level and found the move a huge difference from the Novice level... For instance, when you were putting on novice, you had to put pretty hard/fast to move the ball but when on Adv/expert, your club was very sensitive and just a tap went a long way's.  Same with driving/ pitching, you really had to have your swing right on, just to get more of a straight shot, which was almost impossible to do, you always had a slight fade or draw, depending on how good you were and don't forget that  your on Expert swing difficulty or the ball went right into the trees.. It also made it very exciting. A nice step up from the Novice swing difficulty.... You really had to be careful with your swing...

 

That's it for now, just my opinion, not saying your idea is a bad one, I just like to think most of us won't cheat. When all TSwingers know how difficult it will be to hit a straight shot on the Adv/Expert Swing Difficulty Level, the few that do cheat will be fairly easy to spot... Of course that makes it tough for those that have mastered the top level of the swing because here come those that think they must be cheating if their that good.. So let's putt cheating out of our heads for now..

 

So in closing, I think we should base TS off the fact that the majority of folks Don't Cheat and go from there.

 

Notice I use the words "Swing Difficulty Level", that's because that's what were talking about, not to be confused with Amateur/Pro Levels... Sorry for all the highlights but I wanted to make sure we don't get the 2 confused...

 

I know we will start a TS thread once we see what PP has to offer, that's why there's no in depth theorizing on my part about something we don't even have yet... For those who are to concerned about what I say or do....

 

One last thing.. No disrespect to any one...I have many friends who 3 click and I would NEVER single out someone just because of their method of swing.. But I usually see the cheat fights because a 3 clicker thought the TSwinger was cheating. So if we have not only combined 3click/TS games, (which I love) but we can also have 3 click only and TS only games, then any 3 clicker that thinks TSwingers cheat, can feel at ease and vice versa...

I'm not saying you don't have TS on TS accusers but this would narrow it down.. Again though, I think most don't cheat or accuse folks of cheating, so we need to base everything off of trustworthy folks..

 

I'm not saying that PP shouldn't do every thing in their power to stop those few that will cheat, I'm all for that...

 

Thanks for reading.. I hope no one is offended my my words as this topic is potentially a firestorm. I hope it doesn't turn that way..

[Tigers Agent]

sorry.. wrong button.

[Tigers Agent]

excuse me if I'm wrong, but the speed is always the same, the result is different based on what club or iron you use?

lw 86 yrds..2w 299 yrds and so on?

[bortimus]

One thing we've been leaving out is the 4th click fat/thin snap that the developers mentioned a while back.  If a standard meter is used with the 4th click, there might be a way to use the dynamic snap point idea with the fat/thin click.  

 

Suppose we want to add a timing/rhythm element to clicking.  This could look like the body click idea that K11 has suggested.  Also is the possibility of a second button being pushed/held while the click meter is controlled by the mouse.  Maybe the spacebar (or any button) is pushed/held while the click swing is started with the mouse, and then the spacebar is released at a certain time to represent weight shift or body coordination or whatever. (Remember while this is happening the swing meter is still being controlled by the mouse click)  The clubface angle and power would be set by the mouse click/snap, and the timing of the spacebar would affect how large or small the fat/thin snap point would be.  Proper timing of these two things would lead to a large 4th click point, rewarding the player with a high probability of flush contact.

 

This may not be the greatest idea and some people might shudder at the idea of having to control another button.  Interestingly, a player could choose to not use the spacebar and have a "handsy" swing but the probability of hitting the ball flush would be very unlikely.