210 replies to this topic

[maxie]

Personally speaking i feel that this community is going to be divided because of swings.Look at the leaderboard of the tour pro tournament, mostly all 3 click why?because the 3 clickers were  complaining that mouse swing on tour pro was too easy.So what next? how do the developers make a fair fiield for the game?Impossible the only option is to have have divided groups/ladders for each individual levels and swings.thoughts?

[tlvx]

I think the scoring issues with tour pro motion at the moment are more related to a bug whereby short putts go left regardless of if the ratio is good or not.

That, and I think adding birds to the game, without the option to turn them off, is creating more lag in the frame rates, thus causing more stuttering for many users of all swing types.

I think we have to accept that no swing type can be made to be completely akin to another, due to unintended consequences of inadvertently adding bugs to things that weren't broken to begin with.

I would recon that, under any tinkering, there will always be players of either swing type, that are just head and shoulders above the average.

We shouldn't be so quick to over-react to the natural eventuality of all video games.

[granite00]

Handicaps will level the field if implemented properly.

[frank70]

Personally speaking i feel that this community is going to be divided because of swings.Look at the leaderboard of the tour pro tournament, mostly all 3 click why?because the 3 clickers were  complaining that mouse swing on tour pro was too easy.So what next? how do the developers make a fair fiield for the game?Impossible the only option is to have have divided groups/ladders for each individual levels and swings.thoughts?

I would say that it is almost impossible to create parity between the different swing mechanics. They are all so different. I am playing RTS-M since the last patch and will never look back. I was a pretty good player with mouse swing but wasn't competing for a win after the patch with that mechanic either. 3C is the easiest and it will stay that way.

 

RTS-M is a real challenge. The club as only indicator of shot power makes it a question of feel. You have to feel the rhythm and you simply cannot "dial-a-distance" within the 3 second rule. After the modifications to Tour Pro it is really hard to hit it straight, the scrambling is much harder because of the lacking information of shot power and even the putting is influenced by that (although the information by the BLi is still too precise and it is too easy to put straight).

 

This mechanic is by design much harder than any others. How should the devs counter that for 3-click and MS without artificial penalties?

 

The truth is, that MS and 3-click should play in one field (3-click has to be made a little harder for parity). And the RTS should play in one field. If it is possible to balance out RTS-M and RTS-C is dependant on the different controllers out there. Some seem to be way more forgiving than the others.

 

So down the line the RTS-M players can only hope that PP can double up the player base with final release. Then we could see fields of maybe 100 players on Tour Pro. Which would be enough to call it "a field".

 

P.S.: And no: Handicaps are not a real option. For me it is still an uneven playing field, when 3-clickers have an handicap of -6 and RTS-M-players have on of +4. I for myself want to play on a tour with one swing mechanic and with no handicaps. Fair and square - best score wins. At least on the highest difficulty level that's the way i see it. The Pros don't play with handicaps either.

[MimicPS]

Cat amongst the pigeons time....

 

The changes to Tour Pro MotionSwing have made it directly comparable to the 3-click mechanic on drives, and pretty much on all clubs for full swing. Good work by the devs there, and was needed and accepted by MotionSwing players and a step towards evening the field.

 

The place where the disparity now is, in favour now of 3-click and against 'movement' players, falls on the short game. I think a cursory look at statistics for pitching, flopping and chipping will display just how dramatic an advantage is gained by Clickers having the slowest swing meter in computer golf history and the lack of a '4th dimension' determining club-ball interaction. It is a little disheartening to see chip after chip drop from around the green, although I applaud the skills involved.

 

Earlier I would also have said the putting was almost 'broken' for Tour Pro Motionswing, what with the tendency to pull off of the desired line with the most minimal of difference between the backswing and delivery. That said, I realise the the great majority of the best putters employ the shoulder-rock method and any forcing of delivery will invariably mean greater risk of  setting he ball off with the putter face open or closed. I have cured the worst of my yips now by employing more of a "don't give a damn" attitude to the putting stroke overall, so it can be got around and bad habits be ironed out. The jump in putting for me went from a rather unrealistic 1.53 average to around 2.00 - now happily on its way back towards 1.65 - so the 'double assault' that the MotionSwing players had to add more challenge to our game certainly worked.

[frank70]

Cat amongst the pigeons time....

 

The changes to Tour Pro MotionSwing have made it directly comparable to the 3-click mechanic on drives, and pretty much on all clubs for full swing. Good work by the devs there, and was needed and accepted by MotionSwing players and a step towards evening the field.

 

The place where the disparity now is, in favour now of 3-click and against 'movement' players, falls on the short game. I think a cursory look at statistics for pitching, flopping and chipping will display just how dramatic an advantage is gained by Clickers having the slowest swing meter in computer golf history and the lack of a '4th dimension' determining club-ball interaction. It is a little disheartening to see chip after chip drop from around the green, although I applaud the skills involved.

 

Earlier I would also have said the putting was almost 'broken' for Tour Pro Motionswing, what with the tendency to pull off of the desired line with the most minimal of difference between the backswing and delivery. That said, I realise the the great majority of the best putters employ the shoulder-rock method and any forcing of delivery will invariably mean greater risk of  setting he ball off with the putter face open or closed. I have cured the worst of my yips now by employing more of a "don't give a damn" attitude to the putting stroke overall, so it can be got around and bad habits be ironed out. The jump in putting for me went from a rather unrealistic 1.53 average to around 2.00 - now happily on its way back towards 1.65 - so the 'double assault' that the MotionSwing players had to add more challenge to our game certainly worked.

Very good analysis. Motion swing scoring wise is pretty good right now. If we really would have to read putts without grid or BLI the best would maybe score 68 on average - what would be a great accomplishment by a video game (what realism!!).

 

RTS-M is really on another tear speaking of difficulty. i don't see my swing path what makes it uncomfortable for me personally. Sometimes i feel that my takeaway wasn't clean, but i haven't found a real way to counteract that yet. And it makes a big difference if you hit with 95% power or with 102%. Optically it is only a very narrow difference - the club head is almost on the same position. But if you downswing with the same tempo each time the difference in ratio is enough to miss the fairway or the pin by considerable margin.

 

Said that: It is great as it is. Because we all are just starting to learn the new mechanic. I expect us RTS-M players to improve over time. So it wouldn't be good at all, if we would see -8 or lower on tough tracks like Nautilus Bay. I start the tournament today and i really would be surprised when i can break par.

[Ian]

Mike, if you are getting shot down by guys chipping in from all over the world, I'd suggest a couple of things.

 

1) Close your eyes as your opponent swings and hope you don't hear that dreaded "Plop" as it goes in.

2) Play on courses with undulating greens, set on "Hard" and 14 stimp, and watch how quickly your opponent loses their nerve chipping and goes to the safer, but much less accurate, "Flopping".  d8^)

[Ted_Ball]

RTS-M only tournaments for me please. The community is divided.

[AwYea]

The changes to Tour Pro MotionSwing have made it directly comparable to the 3-click mechanic on drives, and pretty much on all clubs for full swing. Good work by the devs there, and was needed and accepted by MotionSwing players and a step towards evening the field.

 

What, did i miss something? What changes exactly?

 

I don't care what people play with, i still say the game shines with RTS-M. I like MS also, but i can't go back to meters.

 

My issue is settling on a difficulty level. I have such a blast on RTSM-AM. I can play at Pro or TP, but TP can get so frustrating at times and i hit crazy shots or shoot ridiculous scores at times it's just not fun or realistic for me. I think i'm going to let natural progression play out, stick on RTSM-AM(i'm already in a RTSM-AM tour anyhow) and when i get better move up naturally. The thing is, the swings when moving up are not the same, you're basically learning a new swing again and starting over again. So, i'm still not sure.

 

-Extremes in difficulty with RTSM compared to MS.

Before RTSM i was 4-5 HC on MSP, 7-8 MSTP.

With RTSM- Am scratch, RTSM-Pro 7 HC, RTSM- TP-18 HC(and believe it or not i hit a majority of very good shots). On RTSM-TP you have to be so precise all of the time. Playing anything else will ruin your RTSM-TP swing.

[MimicPS]

What, did i miss something? What changes exactly?

 

 

The simple change, only at TP-MS level, was to increase the variance on off-tempo shots by a multiple of I would say 2. For me, I am finding a shot setting off left or right is around twice as wide as it was before at the decimal points either side of the 0.25 optimum. Before, my natural tendency to produce a slight draw helped to pull it back on track, as my tempo misses tend to be on the slower side, so starting right.

 

Not a problem. As I said, that element was certainly called for to match the snap-miss variance for 3-Click.

 

Good to hear you are enjoying the new swing. It is a fantastically engrossing way to play the game. I am lucky in that my MS swing settings also feel best for me in RTS, which of course makes sense. The tempo shouldn't pose too much of a problem, but as you say, it is the mechanic of the swing and the fierce overswing risk-reward/penalty which will take some learning and knowing when you can and can't 'step' on a shot when needed.

 

Going back to my comments above about the putting, RTS is a joy in comparison and I'll take the delicate nature of the putter head movement over missing from 4 foot anytime!

[AwYea]

Going back to my comments above about the putting, RTS is a joy in comparison and I'll take the delicate nature of the putter head movement over missing from 4 foot anytime!

 

Yea, i f they add RTSM puttting to MS i might go back or play tourney's with MS.

 

People saying putting is broke are wrong! Play RTSM-TP on especially with a fast stimp and you better watch that mouse movement on RTSM-TP. You'll go both ways. Never missed a putt offline till i experienced that. On the other hand that makes RTSM-TP more realistic imo? I'm torn

[zmax - sim]

I made a prediction not too long ago on OGT and maybe here too that eventually,  most players will be switching over to  RTS mouse or controller.

 

Once people get a feel for RTS, I don't see a reason to keep using MS.  As for 3 click, it allows people to just jump in and start playing.  I guess some might continue to use it just to keep shooting the same scores.  But they too will switch eventually,  because RTS is just so much fun.....

 

In the not too distant future,  I suspect to see new versions of each tour to be using RTS.

[Fairwayman]

What, did i miss something? What changes exactly?

I don't care what people play with, i still say the game shines with RTS-M. I like MS also, but i can't go back to meters.

My issue is settling on a difficulty level. I have such a blast on RTSM-AM. I can play at Pro or TP, but TP can get so frustrating at times and i hit crazy shots or shoot ridiculous scores at times it's just not fun or realistic for me. I think i'm going to let natural progression play out, stick on RTSM-AM(i'm already in a RTSM-AM tour anyhow) and when i get better move up naturally. The thing is, the swings when moving up are not the same, you're basically learning a new swing again and starting over again. So, i'm still not sure.

-Extremes in difficulty with RTSM compared to MS.
Before RTSM i was 4-5 HC on MSP, 7-8 MSTP.
With RTSM- Am scratch, RTSM-Pro 7 HC, RTSM- TP-18 HC(and believe it or not i hit a majority of very good shots). On RTSM-TP you have to be so precise all of the time. Playing anything else will ruin your RTSM-TP swing.

Agree AWYea

I use MS as primary swing and agree for me...it is alot easier on Pro than RTSM

I agree with you and Mike Frank on rtsm....For me the jump from AM to Pro is perplexing. I can shoot 1 or 2 over on AM but Pro i can only muster about a 20 over....to me, big diff in AM to Pro

We are getting oh so close to the elite RTS in Links ......Love the swing and as you two said natural progression i hope the skill gets better and I am able to move up to Pro.......but AM is sure fun ⛳⛳⛳️⛳️⛳️⛳️⛳️⛳️⛳️⛳️

[JTee1]

RTS-M is a blast and definitely brings another level of realism to Golf sims. I'm struggling in TP for sure but I'm comfortable on Pro level at the moment. My scores have risen with RTS -M over MS, but I enjoy the game more for it. I've switched and cant go back at the moment.

Suggestion to developers would be to move MS meter to center of screen and make both swings either left or right click to start the shot. I personally struggle if i switch between RTSM and MS with to many pilot errors on shot setup and swing. This forced me to abandon MS all together.  

To get the fairest level of play, divided tours is probably the only option at the present state of the game. Its probably not the best option though. As far as Handicaps go they help the average player to be able to  compete and have a better chance at placing and maintaining interest in the game and Tour. It adjusts as they hone their skills. Without the rest of the field competing, its not a tour or tournament. It's something that you will never get everyone to agree on. I play against the course first then my opponents all the  while trying to climb the leader board. Moving up a position is a win for me!

[mebby]

I made a prediction not too long ago on OGT and maybe here too that eventually,  most players will be switching over to  RTS mouse or controller.

 

Once people get a feel for RTS, I don't see a reason to keep using MS.  As for 3 click, it allows people to just jump in and start playing.  I guess some might continue to use it just to keep shooting the same scores.  But they too will switch eventually,  because RTS is just so much fun.....

 

In the not too distant future,  I suspect to see new versions of each tour to be using RTS.

Yea - I agree.  Except I think that the 3C guys will continue using 3C for the most part.  They are die hard 3 clickers and that's how they enjoy the game so I think we'll never see them switch.  Some of the newer people coming into the game may start out on 3C and then move into RTS... but I think the reality is that any new players picking up the game today will start out with RTSC.

[mebby]

I think the real question to me is if you split the RTS tournaments between RTSC and RTSM.  For me at least... RTSM is much more difficult than RTSM.  On my best days I'm shooting around par with RTSM (TP level) but with RTSC I'm shooting below par consistently.  It may just be down to personal preference I guess.  I know that some of the people I play online with compete just fine with me and they are using RTSM.

[AwYea]

I'm better on RTSM-Pro than i thought. I'm a good solid 3-5 HC on Pro. That would be fine playing by myself. For Tourney play and may get a few top 10's i need to stick to AM.

 

My original point stands. RTSM-TP is a BEAST!, but there are already a few that have it down and i'm sure more will follow. What i think is cool, the best in the world at PG will play play real tourney's shooting scores very close to real tour pro's.

Maybe PG can add a spectactor cam for us you can only dream, seriously!   

[JTee1]

I'm better on RTSM-Pro than i thought. I'm a good solid 3-5 HC on Pro. That would be fine playing by myself. For Tourney play and may get a few top 10's i need to stick to AM.

 

My original point stands. RTSM-TP is a BEAST!, but there are already a few that have it down and i'm sure more will follow. What i think is cool, the best in the world at PG will play play real tourney's shooting scores very close to real tour pro's.

Maybe PG can add a spectactor cam for us you can only dream, seriously!   

Hopefully one day while playing TP RTS-M or Sim Tours the actual PGA players scores will populate our leader boards in real time as we play along on the same courses. This would be awesome especially for the GC2 simulator players. Possibly even viewing their shots in the game. This would be a premier league that i would pay for.

[Ricky Proffer]

RTS-M is a blast and definitely brings another level of realism to Golf sims. I'm struggling in TP for sure but I'm comfortable on Pro level at the moment. My scores have risen with RTS -M over MS, but I enjoy the game more for it. I've switched and cant go back at the moment.

Suggestion to developers would be to move MS meter to center of screen and make both swings either left or right click to start the shot. I personally struggle if i switch between RTSM and MS with to many pilot errors on shot setup and swing. This forced me to abandon MS all together.  

To get the fairest level of play, divided tours is probably the only option at the present state of the game. Its probably not the best option though. As far as Handicaps go they help the average player to be able to  compete and have a better chance at placing and maintaining interest in the game and Tour. It adjusts as they hone their skills. Without the rest of the field competing, its not a tour or tournament. It's something that you will never get everyone to agree on. I play against the course first then my opponents all the  while trying to climb the leader board. Moving up a position is a win for me!

This. I am enjoying RTS Mouse greatly and I don't see myself going back to TP MS either.  My scores on TP MS are much better than RTS but I enjoy RTS M much more and that is the goal for me anyway.

[Golden Bear]

OMG  It is a GAME people.  When will the huge amounts of over analyzing end?  Pick a swing type and simply enjoy the game.  Yes...it is that simple.

 

To all those who continually not understand that this is a GAME that will NEVER mirror real life golf exactly I say this to. Please stop with all the focus being on swing types so PG can finally work on and fix what is truly important in the game, any bugs.  The different swings will never be on par with one another.  The sooner players realize this, we all can get back on the links and start enjoying the game again instead of caring about who is scoring what.  I know it is the farthest thing from my mind.