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#1 Ted_Ball

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 12:12 PM

This is a VERY long post.
 
Think of it as a TEDtalk : Ideas Worth Spreading. It's just something for you to read during the "Long wait".
 
I suppose we all have our own thoughts about how a golf game should be and the type of gameplay we would enjoy coming back to daily. I tend to grab a PC game by the teeth and not let go until I've mastered it or I get bored (or disappointed with new developments). NASCAR, Grand Prix Legends, iSnooker, World of Tanks, War Thunder WW2 War Planes etc. but I've never really had a golf game that has held me for very long. The first one I liked was WAY back on the NES console I think and it was just a top down view of a course with a ball being launched (quite realistically) along a nicely rendered faiway. Unbelievably, it stayed at No.1 in my list of golf games I've played to the present day. Sure, Links was cool. I started with old Arnie Palmer which was probably 1998 but the Sergio one put me off. There was something that was tweaked that spoiled it somehow and not in a progressive manner. TWO had so much potential with the Unity engine making it look 3D and wonderful but the scoring was ridiculous. The micro transactions made shots so OP that, for someone who doesn't pay for those things,  for me was completely disgusting. Once they started to have avatars playing golf in pearl diving suits and gorilla costumes I was out of there. I will never play another EA game - ever. What I did like about TWO was the career progression although it was too rapid and simply made the ability to hit stupidly low scores happen quicker. I did organise tournaments on Two and tried to hold back the scoring by restricting the progression and doing things like having 'no-grid' putting. It was a minor success. Then came WGT. I'm trying to think of why I left. I think it just had zero impact. The swing mechanics, the sameness of gameplay, even the dreadful forum setup I think. It's just a dull blur in my memory. No redeeming features.
 
 
Anyway, during all the hours (decades) I've been trying golf games I ponder what might have been and I'd have visions of the ideal (perfect?) game that would hold my attention, make me impatient for the next game, feed my need for personal development and allow me to become part of a community and even make firm friends. These things have happened before - most recently in World of Tanks. WarGaming has made a very good model with that game and most importantly continued development - issuing updates consistently and maintaining a strong player base. I believe certain clever and innovative aspects of all these games can and should be implemented in a golf game.
 
I'm going to base my philosophies on simulation golf. Making it as real as you can on, in my case, a PC. I want the game to replicate the decisions, the feel, the scoring, the emotions (elation, satisfaction, disappointment) that I feel on a golf course IRL. If you want an arcade style game then good for you. By all means play that way and have as much fun as you can. 
 
Let me tell you a true story about a mayor in a city council. There was a problem with the rubbish bins in the CBD. At lunch time the office workers would buy their fast food meals and discard the wrappers and cartons and containers in the many, prominent and sizeable bins lining the streets. The problem was that the bins filled quickly and overflowed, making a dreadful mess and creating an eyesore in this beautiful city and the council workers weren''t able to empty them quickly enough or without disrupting traffic flow etc. My lateral thinking hero mayor took away all the bins. The problem disappeared immediately. So I finally waded through the forums here to give me an idea about the way people are thinking and the issues being raised. The main and longest thread was about the swing gauge, 1 click, 2 click, 3 click, 4 click, no click, RTS, pull back, push forward, slide left , slide right, sweet spot, ding late fade, ding early fade, ding late draw, ding early draw, fast, slow, small ding, diminishing ding, avatar swing, mouse, game pad, thumbs, fingers, straight edges, guides, large swing circle, small swing circle, no swing circle, moveable swing circle, dots, colours, flashing lights, swishing light sabres - have I missed anyone?
 
There is a problem. The bins are overflowing. You can see that there are so many differing opinions about the best way to implement the swing that you can never have an agreement. You can't please everyone. Not only are there different opinions about how to swing, you would also have thousands of different mouse(s) and game controllers, monitor resolutions, pings, reflexes, ages, arthritic conditions, states of mind (cough). So many that there can never be a level playing field. The solution is to take away the bins.
 
Let me put this another way.  In your real universe you stand over the ball with a selected club in your hand. You determine the direction you will hit the ball. You address the ball and line up your feet. If you have played enough golf everything after that is sort of wired into your physics. You begin the backswing, the top of the swing or the start of the downswing is almost auto matic. Its when you feel comfortable whether its short or long. The stroke (it's not a hit) determines when the club face connects with the ball. That connection instance has almost nothing to do with your input (or click). It has been said by great coaches and swing doctors that your swing for a full shot should always be the same. My point, then, is this - why do we need a swing meter? Why do we put ourselves through that twitching ordeal of moving or clicking that cheap bit of plastic at exactly the right time or perfect direction? I would think that by simply starting the swing with a click of a button and letting the avatar go through the motions of the swing would be more than enough to simulate what goes on IRL. Of course you could pre-determine the 'power' of the swing or length of the backswing and other changes which is probably what you should do IRL anyway (with the risk/reward factors that come with that decision). The swing starts, the avatar does their thing, there is a result. You might say that it's too robotic or something. I'll debate that soon.
 
There is absolutely no way that I think you will agree with me.
 
I'm going to talk about some other issues later in this thread.


#2 Kablammo11

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 01:40 PM

Okay, Teddy... you clearly invested much effort in your text, so you deserve a comment or two...

 

Your rubbish metaphore strikes me as a bit too simple. We had similar schemes in my home town, where the rubbish bins were removed from all public transports - resulting, of course, in the rubbish bins on city ground taking the hit and getting clogged up. You can shift rubbish around, you can make it disappear from some places, but the total amount of rubbish is not altered. And there are losers in this: Office workers lose a bit of quality of life and a short break outdoors, because the city can't be bothered to fork out enough money to do it's job properly in the first place. Hot dog stands and deli shops nearby may also lose business. And the problem is not really solved, it just has been moved out of sight for somebody else to deal with it. Your hero mayor just swept the rubbish under the carpet, for others to pick up the mess. He would not get my vote...

 

But let's talk golf, shall we? I'm game for every method of computer golf swing that strikes me as reasonable, be it very old and outdated or completely new, fresh and innovative. The actual launching of a golf ball in a game will never be as complex and challenging as it is in real life. So, yeah, we might as well dismiss the entire timing and skill element connected to this process, why not? Or, alternatively, we could make them so crazy hard, unpredictable and impossible to completely control that they would become the most decisive factor in the game.

I found, in TWO, that winners were not the ones clicking or swinging best, but the ones best at calculating all the factors and deciding the best suitable "firing solution": Where to aim their ball at and what club to play depending on the wind, lie, pin position, green contours etc.. Those who were best at sussing out the small riddle that each shot presented them with usually were those on top of the leaderboard. Not those with the best timing or the most smooth mouse swish...

So I totally see were you are coming from with your suggestion. I'm not quite sure where you are getting at with it, but as you promised more explanations, I shall demure for now and read on as you develop your ideas.


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#3 shimonko

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 03:42 PM

 

There is absolutely no way that I think you will agree with me.

 

Don't be so sure. I've never been happy enough with golf games to devote a lot of time to them. Even with $50,000 simulators.

 

For instance, I don't like backswing length controlling power - very few (Dave Pelz students) purposely control backswing length in a real swing. Backswing length just happens when you feel you have to hit a particular distance.

 

Coincidentally a great Australian golfer carrying your screen name, Ted Ball (who lived about 20km from a town where the Mayor removed the bins) had a backswing that rarely ventured past hip height. Acceleration from the top is key in a real swing and I feel it should be key in desktop golf. You can have a short backswing and a higher acceleration or longer backswing and lower acceleration to hit the same distance.

 

If I pull a mouse back and snap it forward too fast, that feels like swinging over the top to me (=>pull or slice). If I take too long changing direction, I feel the club's getting caught behind me (=>push or flippy hand hook).

 

Just as any good golfer can hit the ball well blindfolded, the computer golfer shouldn't need to look at a meter on the screen. He should totally be able to feel the swing.  A standard mouse may be insufficient as a controller. It might require a rotational mouse with force feedback to mimic the feel we get from a purely struck ball. But whatever it is, I'd like to think there is a desktop experience that gets us close to real golf so a full garage simulator setup isn't required.



#4 MERACE

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 07:37 PM

Interesting that you bring up the subject of a no meter swing for a virtual golf game.  Another current virtual golf game has exactly that.  The developers were testing out an new alpha build of the game when the meter was some how omitted.  They liked that had to rely on more "feel" in the swing and decided to remove the swing meter from the game.

 

 

-MERACE



#5 Davefevs

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 09:01 PM

Interesting that you bring up the subject of a no meter swing for a virtual golf game.  Another current virtual golf game has exactly that.  The developers were testing out an new alpha build of the game when the meter was some how omitted.  They liked that had to rely on more "feel" in the swing and decided to remove the swing meter from the game.
 
 
-MERACE


What game us that?

#6 Ted_Ball

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 09:34 PM

A quick reply to shimonko.

Yes. The great Ted Ball. Chain-smoker with the fast back swing. It was often pointed out to me that I 'swung like Ted Ball' (without the same results). I swear I remember him dropping the lit ciggy on the ground to take a shot. It was going to be Teddy Ball or Billy Dunk.



#7 Ted_Ball

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 12:14 AM

Yes K11, it was a simple metaphor and you notice that I didn't say anything about what happened later with the Mayor's experiment. In fact I don't know what happened. I'm sure there are bins back on the streets now. It was back in the 80's, I think, when things were much nicer and probably beige. If there were no bins these days then  the younger gen would just throw the rubbish at their feet and blissfully stride away. A colleague confronted some young people where I worked about discarding their stuff on the ground and they dismissingly said that, oh, they pay someone to pick it up.
 
But the story highlights the fact that thinking outside the box can come up with simple solutions to complex issues (that sometimes work).
 
The golf swing can not be replicated with a mouse or any other control method. In fact, if you think about it, the simpler swing gauges are only doing what I suggest but with some added, superfluous, actions inputted by the user. The swing is started by a click of a mouse (I'll stick to a mouse as a controller for this thread) - which is the same as my method - but the downswing start and connection with the ball are added clicks. The avatar goes through the animation of the whole swing anyway without any input. So a 3 click action adds a click point where the downswing starts and when the club hits the ball. That 3 click method does not add any realism to the swing AT ALL!! So why add the clicks? It seems to be adding something that takes away from the realism.
 
Now, you might say with a TrueSwing you can get some feel for power and draw/fade manipulation which gets closer to a realistic swing. With the greatest amount of respect to TrueSwingers I can't agree. Sliding a mouse does not replicate a golf swing. It might be closer to realism than clicking a button but the programming needed to simulate a swing action has to be dumbed down, in that sweet spots have to be so large relatively speaking, that there is almost no need for it in the same way that a swing gauge is not needed as shown above in this thread. If it wasn't dumbed down then balls would be flying off in crazy directions and very few would use TS. So why bother with that method if it is simplified so much? And I might add that there are all sorts of mouse, desks, physical conditions etc that disrupt the level of the playing field.
 
So, I'll address the (imagined) argument that having no swing gauge or TS would cause the game to be like playing a robot. You push a button and Robbie does it all for you...pah! Ok. In my personal favourite future Golf Sim (Ted Ball's Swing Golf) I would be deciding on the variables prior to starting the swing. I'll just list them off the top of my head. 
 
Power -
It may as well be a percentage. You might be faced with a shot that's between clubs and you might have to take a bit off. You might want to really cream a drive to clear a bunker or cut off a dog-leg so you go to 110% with the risks added on. The choice would be shown in the animation as a long backswing or shorter backswing for punch.
 
Swing Speed or Acceleration (as alluded to by shimonko earlier) -
Another variable which would have consequences for the result of the shot
 
Draw/Fade -
Simplified, it could be opening or closing the clubface. If you wanted it more complex you could have swing path adjustments.
 
Stance -
Open/closed to adjust Fade/Draw, ball forward, ball backward for trajectory.
 
And probably more. I can't see why the variable couldn't be quick adjustments and probably locked in for the majority of shots.
 
BUT....it's still like a robot and every shot would have the same result I hear you say. Now my next bit of fractured logic is the cruncher for me and leads to but not necessarily embraces the contentious issues of 'leveling' and 'career' and 'tiers'. 
 
More soon.


#8 Kablammo11

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 12:20 PM

You're building up to something here, Teddy. The suspense is killing me and I will definetely not get sidetracked by a debate whether removing rubbish bins was an act of lateral thinking, wishful thinking or outright helpless denial... no more rubbish bins, please.

 

You're clearly centering your observation on the standard full swing, I think. There are, however, at least half of "feel" shots during a round: pitches, chips, putts, which imo can quite well be simulated with the existing computer golf input methods. 

With regards to Ted Ball's Swing Golf, I shall wait for the denouement of your tale. Again, if you make any sense, I do hope that I will be understanding enough to overcome whatever preconceptions are lurking in the back of my mind. If you were to explain that, say, for arguments' sake, softly rubbing a plush unicorn's horn was the way to go, I would attempt to be as fair-minded as I can.

But be advised that not many people are as purist and rigorous in their contemplation of computer golf. A great many potential players just like the game of golf, want to click a few buttons and be rewarded with something "golfy" happening on their screen. As easy as that... These folks, too, have rights and expectations to which they are as entitled as you, and this must be respected as well.

 

I also think that...   Dang! Plush unicorn?... hm...cute, fluffy little plush toy... rainbow mane... big, dark eyes....  I like it! I like it a lot!...

I'm not making fun of you with this, Teddy. Just trying to infuse a bit of levity. I know this is serious. Lighten up... and bring it on.


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#9 AndyJumbo

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 12:39 PM

Woooo Hoooooooo Guys !!!

I just read your give & take.....



#10 IanD

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 01:01 PM

Maybe it is as pointed out above... a No Swing Meter of any visual description ?

 

Maybe it simply is, a way of deciding at point of calibration, whether you wish to move a mouse x amount when determining a full swing or by clicking at several delays of your own choice.. but quite simply a mouse interface wouldn't necessarily be needed. A key press, held or otherwise would work as well as trackball etc etc... but without the visual of seeing your power or snap, until after the shot?

 

Who knows... but I do play in a similar way regarding the ciggy dropped on the grass until I hit my shot...



#11 MERACE

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 02:40 PM

What game us that?

TGC (The Golf Club).

 

I would also like to see virtual golf games include a more realistic tempo/rhythm element into the swing. 

 

 

-MERACE



#12 Andrew

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 11:07 PM

Our current mouse swing uses tempo in this way.  Basically there is supposed to be a rhythm to the swing.  IF you get too quick you will pull the ball and conversely too slow and you push the ball.  Fade and hook is determined by the angle of the mouse through impact.


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#13 Ted_Ball

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 11:26 PM

Oh that's just great K11. My revelation is, in fact, a plush unicorn's horn. Thank you for pre-empting and spoiling my announcement.

 

I've just had a look over at TGC and was a bit confused about their swing meter or lack of. I'm assuming they are using a game controller thumb joystick thingy. Is that right? Look, that's fine, and it is probably a better alternative than click or TS in my opinion but I would have issues with sensitivity. I'd have to buy a game controller as well, but that's nit-picking. After reading forums it is quite clear that everyone has their own preference which means that developers (to satisfy all players) would really need to include options for all types of swing method. If they don't they might lose potential customers. And this is the problem of which I speak - too many options complicating matters when the solution might be to come up with the Theory Of Everything.

 

But what's with the TGC avatars!!? I hate to disparage someones physical appearance but are their legs stumpy? (Not that there's anything wrong with that). It really is the first on my list of criteria for a golf game. A decent avatar. At least Links 1998 had poor old Arnie looking real. Do you remember Actua Golf  on the SNES console I think. I just cracked up when I saw him in the demo. I literally rolled on the floor laughing out loud. You all remember the shocker at TWO. That guy looked horrible. I think there was a few different choices BUT THEY ALL LOOKED THE SAME. I wouldn't invite that guy into the clubhouse after the round in case I offended the members. I've seen the short vid of the guy in our wonderful Perfect Golf and he does look great. The animation and swing look really good. Congrats.

 

Anyway, back to the rubbish at hand. My apologies for this long build up. It has to be long posts because it will probably take a lot of convincing and explanation. Please don't get too excited. I'm sure once I've started revealing my plan for Ted Ball's Swing Golf that you'll stare at your feet and cough politely and pretend to answer your phone and the crowd will drift away leaving me alone rubbing my plush unicorn's horn with great embarrassment.



#14 Ted_Ball

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 11:28 PM

Hi Andrew.

 

Please let me say that the swing meter looks great and I'm looking forward to using it.

 

I'm just doing some thought experiments during the 'Long Wait'.



#15 Ted_Ball

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 11:52 PM

I'll just clarify something from my previous long post. I said...

 

 

Power -

It may as well be a percentage. You might be faced with a shot that's between clubs and you might have to take a bit off. You might want to really cream a drive to clear a bunker or cut off a dog-leg so you go to 110% with the risks added on. The choice would be shown in the animation as a long backswing or shorter backswing for punch.
 

 

I'm thinking about what goes through my head before I play a shot in real life ( *add ribald comment here*).  As I have mentioned, IRL we (or I) pre-determine how we will play a shot in the case of Power. I don't think in terms of numerical percentages at all. I might think "I'll have to muscle this one" or "Just swing a bit easier". I'm only referring to full swings. Chipping or half wedges are another thing. So, instead of having a percentage value which you load into the swing before the shot, it is probably just a matter of choosing "UNDER / OVER" or something like that which is more like what I would think to myself. Does anyone actually think, "I'll give this 115%"?. For a full swing with an iron the difference is only about 10 meters between clubs so the UNDER / OVER choice only gives  + or - a couple of meters and the resulting distances IRL rarely work out to that degree of precision anyway. Which leads to my next long post.



#16 Ted_Ball

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 05:27 AM

So I'll do a little recap of what I have been posting and my ideas for Ted Ball's Swing Golf - Realism, Simulation and Verisimilitude
 
There is no swing meter, no #clicks, no TrueSwing, no thumb stick and no physical input from you for the swing - "The Player".
 
There is an option panel for setup.
 
The ball is teed up where you want it in the teebox and the aim is set
              
The shot is then activated by a simple click of a button called "TAKE SHOT" or something.
 
The avatar goes through the swing animation and the ball is launched.
 
 
At this point a Random Number Generator determines the direction and distance the ball travels. The RNG is the important part of this whole thread and is necessary so that every shot is NOT the same as if a robot is hitting the ball. To me, the part of TWO and WGT that I found so boring was the fact that you could just about place the ball exactly where you wanted it time after time. There were minor differences based on your accuracy with the meter but generally the players were so conditioned to hitting the ding regularly that the game play was excrutiatingly monotonous. We all know that that is so far from reality that it is farcical. If you could watch every shot played by every player in The Masters you would see a huge amount of miss hits, shanks, duck hooks, draw shot attempts that block right, missed faiways, missed greens - and that's the very best golfers on the planet. For the rank and file like us it is an extremely high percentage of less than perfect shots. Even a well-timed shot that feels good can have a less than perfect result. I'm not for a minute suggesting that a RNGenerated shot in TBSG-RSV would be topped and scuttled 30 metres into a pond way off to the left such as my stock miss hit.
 
Before I get further into the technicalities of this idea, I'll explain a bit further about why it adds realism and could be interesting. As I said previously it is so boring to play computer golf when every shot lands long and on the fairway or green. In TWO there were scores in the 40s. Not for me, I might add, I couldn't be bothered trying (restarting rounds etc) and I certainly wouldn't pay for the privilege. Those guys weren't playing sim golf or anything like it. How long could you put up with landing your ball within 1 foot of the hole for eagles round after round before absolute boredom set in. If you listen to Pros talking about certain golf courses that they love playing they always say that you have to think your way around the course. They might love a links course where you are faced with a strange angle and have to run your ball onto the green or manufacture shots depending on where your ball finished. They seem to love Royal Melbourne and say the challenge is so appealing compared to target golf on the US courses. They used to say that Seve was such a champion because he could manufacture shots from impossible positions. It shouldn't be any different for a computer golf sim. Here's a fact - no golfer in history could predict where his ball would finish every shot. The Shark said, "I was in awe of myself" after one round but plonked his ball into the water on 16 at Augusta after leading by 5 overnight. I reckon I would have played a better shot than that!!
 
Now, I know that some gamers absolutely despise RNG. In World of Tanks when you come upon a KV-1S one shot from death with his turret slowly coming around to obliterate you and your shot bounces, you would curse RNG too. But golf isn't WoT. Although a stray golf ball hit me in the arm once and I blew up. 
 
In the next post I'll give some examples and show how RNG would be applied in TBSG-RSV and project further into the consequences.


#17 Ted_Ball

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 06:56 AM

From my opening post.....

 

 

 

The first one I liked was WAY back on the NES console I think and it was just a top down view of a course with a ball being launched (quite realistically) along a nicely rendered faiway. Unbelievably, it stayed at No.1 in my list of golf games I've played to the present day

 

Well I found it on Youtube and here it is. It was called "Hole In One Golf" and it was on the SNES. I remember thinking, "Lordy. Look at how crisp and beautiful those graphics are! Look at the ball shadow."  Has much changed in computer golf since 1991? Look at the swing meter. No stumpy legs. I have applied to the publisher to use the brilliant soundtrack and sound effects for TBSG-RSV. The tension/anticipation chords are fabulous when he lands on the green for a possible bird.

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQFZ46PxiUE



#18 Davefevs

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 05:02 PM

Teddy. I quite like the idea of a sim like game, but I think we'd be wasting some of things we yearn for in a golf game like I think PP are building.

There are times when I'd like to sim a real pro's round, where for each shot I get to choose:

- stance
- club
- power (3/4, steady, full, blast it as hard as I can)
- shot type (normal, punch etc)
- shape
Etc (some would be covered by stance or combination)

And then let RNG decide where the ball would end up. I also like the idea of allocating points to different skills, e.g. Driving, putting etc, that would influence the range of the RNG.

In fact I think there is a game out there that attempts something similar.....can't remember it's name.

I think the input mechanism for PG is gonna be key to realism.

#19 Kablammo11

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 05:37 PM

Teddy, I'm shocked by your text! Shocked! What shocks me most is that I'm not shocked at all by anything you write. And just give the unicorn horn some time, it'll grow on you. The chirpy SNES music would go very well with it...

 

In my bag, way back, I had clubs that I liked a lot and knew would work for me: 3 wood, 5 iron, 9 iron, Sand Wedge. Funny thing is that I almost never felt comfortable with the 4 iron and 7 iron. 6 and 8 worked okay, and on the few rare days my 3 wood let me down I somehow managed to coax a few decent shots out of my driver. I didn't like it when the yardage of my ugly clubs came up and tried to adjust the stance to swing around them if possible. Standing on top of a ball with one of my nice clubs was so much more comforting than adressing it with one of the uglies... I was madly in love with my first 5 wood and only swung my 3 iron perhaps half a dozen times in 20+ years of playing real golf... And I always used my sand wedge for pitches, not PW's , even after their straight bottom edge scraping the ground cost me dearly hundreds of times...

I also was a natural fader of the ball. I have written about this on a thread about a year ago - I think players should get to choose if they want their avatar to be a fader or a drawer - straight shots being the rarest of things on a golf course. I also found that momentum was a big factor: Start well, hit a few decent ones, and you know you're going to have fun - start off with a triple and you might as well not bother. 

 

I'd love for a game to somehow find a smart way to replicate all this - all the way to the mental turmoil and/or quiet confidence shortly before hitting a nice or an ugly club. Your RNG should be a pretty clever RNG, imo, one that allows for streaks to happen and confirmed habits to prevail. So, dammit, please try a lot harder to shock me... And keep posting, by all means. 


>>>>>>> Ka-Boom!





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#20 highfade

highfade

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 05:39 PM

Like in real golf I might have ticked all the boxes as far as setup, power, aim, etc. goes. 

 

BUT, what happens after you take away the club to start your swing is where the thrill lies, the sweaty palms, the rush of blood to the head, the second guessing your decisions and so on. No RNG can replace that?

 

What I would like is to take out the concept of a perfect snap, so that even if you think it was perfect, it was just slightly off. ;)  


  • Davefevs likes this

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