30 replies to this topic

[Vader jr.]

I know that PG is releasing with both a mouse swing (with a tempo factor) for the hardcore simulation crowd, and also a 3 click swing for the more casual gamers.

I'm just hoping that the developers don't saddle the 3 click swing with any additional actions (to mimic the difficulty of 'tempo') and wind up forcing casual gamers like myself into playing a more difficult swing without any easier options.

In other words, please don't add additional elements to the 3 click swing just to make it harder for cheaters -- since you'll be ruining the game for everybody else just for the sake of a few cheaters. 

If you're worried about cheating happening for pure 3 click swings -- then you can solve the issue by allowing an offline mode for pure 3 click swings where scores don't get submitted online, thus allowing casual gamers to play with a pure 3 click swing without cheaters being able to ruin the online scoreboards using macros or whatever.   

I'm more of a casual gamer who enjoys the easier 3 click swing, since it presents some challenges but not nearly as many challenges as a mouse/tempo swing.  It allows me to focus mainly on the mental element of lining up shots through wind speed, elevation and sidehill lies. 

My parents are older and they don't have the proper hand/eye coordination to execute complex mouse/tempo swings with any accuracy.   They like the simple 3 click swing without any additional enchancements to make it harder.

Can anybody confirm if the 3 click swing will be a basic 3 click swing?   Or will it have other elements to make it harder?

[Mike Jones]

We have various 'aids' which can be turned on and off, when you have all of them set to maximum it's fairly easy IMO but of course we will be able to fine tune the difficulty once we have some wider feedback when the game becomes available in Early Access form.

[shimonko]

Vader jr., on 06 Jan 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

Can anybody confirm if the 3 click swing will be a basic 3 click swing?   Or will it have other elements to make it harder?

It's a basic 3 click swingmeter.  It doesn't have divisions around it like some swingmeters do. With aids off, the swingmeter is  hard enough without adding complications. There are many anti-cheat strategies that can used without the end-user noticing, but it would be only worth worrying about if it becomes a problem.

[Vader jr.]

Sounds good.

Thanks for the replies.

[Dazmaniac]

I've done plenty of gameplay testing with the swing meter, with assists both on and off (at the varying levels offered) and I can safely say that I haven't hit too many arrow straight shots so far.

 

I have hit plenty of almost straight shots, but achieving the 100% poker straight shot seems to have eluded me for the most part, which I'm glad about.

 

[dedBuNNy]

The only way that 'cheating' would be an issue here, that I can see anyway, is if PP stupidly and I say stupidly in the strongest sense of the word, sets this game up like WGT does. As in tying everything that the game is about to a revenue stream with respect to clubs, balls, prizes that can be redeemed for real-world merchandise. 

 

Do that - and your game is dead before it even gets out of the gate. Because as so many people are adept at cheating on WGT why on earth would they bother learning to do it here? 

 

Harsh? I don't care. After having spent hundreds of dollars over there to have it so clearly and plainly thrown in your face just how manipulated and 'broken' that game is, how most of the top players are not playing with the same game environment as 99% of the player base. Multi-accounts have become commonplace, so much so that they don't even bother with them anymore. 

 

I'm sure none of this is news to PP, I'm sure, well I would hope anyway that they have accounts there and are well aware of what goes on with WGT, so you should know what not to do here. I certainly hope so anyway, it would be a damn shame to see the same format running with a 'paid for' game.

[noelw1969]

HB The Golf Club developers are planning to implement a system that, in theory, will weed out those people who "augment" their swing in order to gain zero axis deviation, thereby giving perfectly hit shots.

 

The system quite obviously, will not be able to physically pick up the use of aids but will simply eliminate scores which have been gained by hitting above a certain percentage of zero axis shots. HB admit that it is possible to get zero axis deviation when taking your swing, either with a mouse or a gamepad but they refuse to admit that it can be done multiple times in a row or even in a round. This is the basis for the proposed system.

 

So, in theory, a player can use an edge, for example, deliberately hit below that percentage of zero axis shots and gain a round leading score untouched by HB implemented systems. Another player can come along without the use of an aid and have the round of his life to post a new leading score but see that score eliminated because his percentage of zero axis shots is too high. The best part about this is that there will be no proof of anything. You can use an edge or not and HB the system will not be able to tell the difference meaning the system relies guesswork at best !!

 

Personally, I will likely use my mouse for PG as I have never gotten the feel or knack for playing 3C. One argument on TWO was that 3C users were able to hit perfect straight hits every time so why shouldn't mouse users be allowed an edge to use for the same result ? I will never condone cheating but sometimes augmenting a swing method is the only way to gain equality. Until games are produced where specific hardware is required to play it, there is going to be very little that developers can do to "manage" such players. To me, the real cheats are the ones who hack the game and simply post unplayed scores or change conditions to suit what they do or are able to continually replay shots until the desired result is gained etc....

[shimonko]

I don't particularly like what you are suggesting HB Studios is doing, for similar reasons.

 

No one is stopping mouse swingers from using the clickmeter. That is golf--you choose the conforming equipment that best suits your priorities - scoring, looks, tradition, budget...

 

The closest thing to edging in real golf would be a putting track--instant disqualification.

[IanK]

I play video golf for my own satisfaction and enjoyment. Any kind of cheating is abhorrent to me which is why I normally play by myself against the course.

[Vader jr.]

noelw1969, on 08 Jan 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

HB The Golf Club developers are planning to implement a system that, in theory, will weed out those people who "augment" their swing in order to gain zero axis deviation, thereby giving perfectly hit shots.

 

The system quite obviously, will not be able to physically pick up the use of aids but will simply eliminate scores which have been gained by hitting above a certain percentage of zero axis shots. HB admit that it is possible to get zero axis deviation when taking your swing, either with a mouse or a gamepad but they refuse to admit that it can be done multiple times in a row or even in a round. This is the basis for the proposed system.

HB's system is not bad but it won't eliminate cheaters.   It will only eliminate lazy or less intelligent cheaters.  Why?  Because you don't have to eliminate the axis entirely to cheat.  USB dongle devices exist which allow you to program each axis with any settings you wish, from 0 to 100%. 

A cheater can eliminate the axis by 99% (instead of 100%) which will still give you a virtually perfect shot but will "appear" to be legitimate to a cheat detecting mechanism.  

An intelligent cheater would go even further to avoid detection.  For instance, a person could assign 99% axis disabling to one "profile" (nearly perfect shot) and 96% axis disabling to another "profile" (slightly imperfect shot but still in the fairway).

Then, they'd use profile #1 (nearly perfect shot) for approach shots which need more accuracy.  They could then use the less accurate profile (#2) for tee shots which would easily land them on the fairway even though it's slightly less than a perfect shot.  It would be harder for HB to detect such variety.  

...And if HB Studios responds by looking for 1% deviation in their cheat detection software, the cheater can then switch to using a 2% deviation to avoid the cheat software.   Or 3% deviation, etc.   It's just a game of cat and mouse.  But if HB starts looking for "imperfect" readings as mentioned above -- they'll wind up catching lots of legit shots from good players also (too many false positives).  So it's a game that can't be won.

BTW:  PG's mouse movement and tempo are both programmable too, and are not immune to cheaters.  Anything which your mouse can do can be recorded by a cheater.  It may be difficult with tempo since they'd have to combine tempo, distance and axis recordings inside a single macro -- so they'd probably have to define certain common power percentages as cheat profiles (100%, 75%, 50%, etc).  They couldn't hit every percentage, but they could do it to some degree. 

You can't stop cheaters unless you're ready to deal with lots of false positives from legit players too, because you can't just look for "100% axis diabling" or "perfectly timed macros" to detect cheaters.  You need to look for slightly imperfect shots too.  Then you risk the danger of false positives.

However, I agree that any attempt to stop cheaters should simply disable their scores from the leaderboards -- rather than ruin the swing for everybody else.   Just like others here, I just play for myself and don't even submit my scores to the leaderboard when playing TW.   I don't like cheaters either but I don't want to see the game ruined to combat cheaters.   

[woodworkery]

dedBuNNy, on 07 Jan 2015 - 3:21 PM, said:

The only way that 'cheating' would be an issue here, that I can see anyway, is if PP stupidly and I say stupidly in the strongest sense of the word, sets this game up like WGT does. As in tying everything that the game is about to a revenue stream with respect to clubs, balls, prizes that can be redeemed for real-world merchandise. 

 

Do that - and your game is dead before it even gets out of the gate. Because as so many people are adept at cheating on WGT why on earth would they bother learning to do it here? 

 

Harsh? I don't care. After having spent hundreds of dollars over there to have it so clearly and plainly thrown in your face just how manipulated and 'broken' that game is, how most of the top players are not playing with the same game environment as 99% of the player base. Multi-accounts have become commonplace, so much so that they don't even bother with them anymore. 

 

I'm sure none of this is news to PP, I'm sure, well I would hope anyway that they have accounts there and are well aware of what goes on with WGT, so you should know what not to do here. I certainly hope so anyway, it would be a damn shame to see the same format running with a 'paid for' game.

hey Bunny, I hear ya. Did u see they shut down the thread on PP? Those suck butts are knocking the videos of PP , saying its Links reincarnated. There is so many cheats over there,its not funny. Anyway hope PP gets up and going , cause thats all they are saying " yeah we heard that before, maybe they will be running in a few more years"  I just hope it is priced right ,cause that was another issue. They keep throwing up how WGT is free......yeah right 

[bortimus]

What a complete pain in the arse this must be for the developers.  Ugh.  Seems like such a waste of time having to account for this garbage when there's so much else to focus on to produce a quality game.  

[JoeF]

Since I've been doing most of my testing using the mouse swing I can tell you that hitting a perfectly straight shot at the highest difficulty level in PG is, as Ben Hogan used to say, "an accident".  Swing path and tempo are calculated out to 6 and 7 decimal places respectively so even minute variances begin to play a role in the flight path of the ball and the distance it travels.  If one was to use an edge to try for a perfect swingpath but the tempo was slightly off the ball will still go right or left.  I've even played with an edge to see what would happen and I have yet to hit a shot with a perfect swingpath of 0.000000 - the closest I ever came was -0.3 and change.  Though this will not stop someone from trying to cheat it certainly makes it less appealing and it will be somewhat easier to detect if shots are becoming too consistent.  Plus the fact that the wind effects on the ball are calculated in real time, as the ball is in flight, means no one, including the game itself, knows exactly where the ball is going.  

[Vader jr.]

Just wanted to point out that another way a dishonest person might take advantage of the mouse 'tempo' swing is a Windows feature called "mouse keys".    

Although mouse macro programs (which record 'mouse movement') are widely available for the PC, they're easily detected since they're run outside of Windows.  Cheaters probably won't have much luck with those.

But Windows has a feature called "mouse keys" (for disabled people).   It assigns mouse movements to keyboard keys and it's part of Windows so it probably can't be detected.

All by itself it means nothing (other than basic axis disabling).  However, if used in conjunction with the right gaming keyboard it means that those "mouse keys" can be recorded by the keyboard macro recorder. Everything the mouse can do is assigned to a keyboard key, so everything is subject to macro recording -- including tempo.

Even though most gaming keyboards still require outside software to execute macros (which is detectable)......there are several keyboards that don't require any software whatsoever to execute macros. 

I doubt that many people would stoop to this level.  But if the devs are thinking about possible cheat detection in the future, I just wanted to put this bee in their bonnet.   That's the final comment I'll make about this topic. 

[dedBuNNy]

woodworkery, on 08 Jan 2015 - 1:40 PM, said:

hey Bunny, I hear ya. Did u see they shut down the thread on PP? Those suck butts are knocking the videos of PP , saying its Links reincarnated. There is so many cheats over there,its not funny. Anyway hope PP gets up and going , cause thats all they are saying " yeah we heard that before, maybe they will be running in a few more years"  I just hope it is priced right ,cause that was another issue. They keep throwing up how WGT is free......yeah right 

 

Yep, it's downright comical some of the comments,  blind delusional mindset.  I've said it there, but the deluded don't hear it - PG isn't competition to WGT, it's so far above what WGT is that it's not fair to compare them against each other. WGT isn't about the game or sport of golf, it's about generating revenue for the owners plain and simple. 

 

I don't think cheating will be any sort of issue here. Just the feeling I get from reading about the swing meter, real-time weather, ball and shot physics etc... Seems like you'd spend days trying to code a macro only to have a wicked updraft on the course you're playing in 100 degree heat throw your ball 4 yards off line. You can't code cheats for real world variables, well not very well anyway I would think. And why bother?

 

It's golf! Learn to use your gear properly! ;-)

[Dazmaniac]

woodworkery, on 08 Jan 2015 - 1:40 PM, said:

hey Bunny, I hear ya. Did u see they shut down the thread on PP? Those suck butts are knocking the videos of PP , saying its Links reincarnated. There is so many cheats over there,its not funny. Anyway hope PP gets up and going , cause thats all they are saying " yeah we heard that before, maybe they will be running in a few more years"  I just hope it is priced right ,cause that was another issue. They keep throwing up how WGT is free......yeah right 

 

Personally, I don't see that as a bad thing.

 

I decided to leave the TGC players to themselves. Despite several re-installs of the game, It gets removed again and I go back to playing Links 2003 and testing PG.

 

[Kablammo11]

Agree. PG is Links reincarnated. Next gen, full 3D Links. Back to the future: As far as I'm concerned that is the best thing that can be said about any computer golf game.

[noelw1969]

Vader jr., on 08 Jan 2015 - 1:32 PM, said:

HB's system is not bad but it won't eliminate cheaters.   It will only eliminate lazy or less intelligent cheaters.  Why?  Because you don't have to eliminate the axis entirely to cheat.  USB dongle devices exist which allow you to program each axis with any settings you wish, from 0 to 100%. 

A cheater can eliminate the axis by 99% (instead of 100%) which will still give you a virtually perfect shot but will "appear" to be legitimate to a cheat detecting mechanism.  

An intelligent cheater would go even further to avoid detection.  For instance, a person could assign 99% axis disabling to one "profile" (nearly perfect shot) and 96% axis disabling to another "profile" (slightly imperfect shot but still in the fairway).

Then, they'd use profile #1 (nearly perfect shot) for approach shots which need more accuracy.  They could then use the less accurate profile (#2) for tee shots which would easily land them on the fairway even though it's slightly less than a perfect shot.  It would be harder for HB to detect such variety.  

...And if HB Studios responds by looking for 1% deviation in their cheat detection software, the cheater can then switch to using a 2% deviation to avoid the cheat software.   Or 3% deviation, etc.   It's just a game of cat and mouse.  But if HB starts looking for "imperfect" readings as mentioned above -- they'll wind up catching lots of legit shots from good players also (too many false positives).  So it's a game that can't be won.

BTW:  PG's mouse movement and tempo are both programmable too, and are not immune to cheaters.  Anything which your mouse can do can be recorded by a cheater.  It may be difficult with tempo since they'd have to combine tempo, distance and axis recordings inside a single macro -- so they'd probably have to define certain common power percentages as cheat profiles (100%, 75%, 50%, etc).  They couldn't hit every percentage, but they could do it to some degree. 

You can't stop cheaters unless you're ready to deal with lots of false positives from legit players too, because you can't just look for "100% axis diabling" or "perfectly timed macros" to detect cheaters.  You need to look for slightly imperfect shots too.  Then you risk the danger of false positives.

However, I agree that any attempt to stop cheaters should simply disable their scores from the leaderboards -- rather than ruin the swing for everybody else.   Just like others here, I just play for myself and don't even submit my scores to the leaderboard when playing TW.   I don't like cheaters either but I don't want to see the game ruined to combat cheaters.   

 

This is an excellent post.

 

I wonder, are you GolfVader from HB Golf ? If so, maybe you could post this over there as it is way better than anything I could have written and will save them oodles of time and money in what I seriously believe to be a wasted exercise.

 

The notion of trying to weed out those who use edges or third party software seems futile to me. Hackers can be found, proven and removed. Edgers can't so why bother trying ? If the game is made so that such ability can never be achieved even with aids, then people wouldn't bother. If I remember correctly, TW14 asked if you wanted a draw or fade on your stroke and as such, a dead straight hit was achieved by mis-hitting the ball !!

[Sinewiz]

Being Links reincarnated is the best compliment a PC golf game could get.   My purpose is not to slam TGC as I have it and I play it, (occasionaly) but I've been testing PP for some time now and you can't even compare the two if your looking for a true representation of a "real" round of golf. And PP is still in Beta stage. 

[dedBuNNy]

The only issue with detecting and doing anything with respect to gaming mouse software is you can't ban or filter for that. It works with the mouse and or keyboard. There are a lot of reasons to be running macro's while gaming or working on the computer if you work with say SolidWorks or graphic design software. I use them all time running on my Razer mouse.

 

Funny thing is I still mostly game with my MX-518, still a kick ass mouse.