28 replies to this topic

[Vader jr.]

Hi.  I have 2 questions for anybody who knows Course Forge pretty well.

Question #1) Last year...  When I used TGC's course creator to make deep bunkers, the edges of round bunkers became "jagged" and extremely unprofessional looking whenever I dropped the interior of the bunkers too steeply (yeah, I like to make some bunkers several meters deep, lol).   The same thing also happened when I "raised" the lip of the bunkers a bit.

Also...  The same thing happened to the edges of round-shaped greens.  The edges got "jagged" and unprofessional looking whenever I chose to moderately slope the area where the green's edge would border the fairway.  It's probably a Unity issue with displaying the depth of round shapes.

Does Course Forge have this same problem?    If so, will it be fixed at some point in the future?

Question #2)  TGC had plantable items that would hover in mid air when auto-planted on sloping ground all over the course, so I'm wondering if Course Forge suffers from this same problem?

The problem was caused because each plantable item (weeds, tall grass, flower beds, etc) extended for several feet as a single unit -- but TGC's programmers goofed bigtime because each "unit" was only attached to the ground at a single point -- which means each patch of weeds would appear to "hover" in mid air if auto-planted on downward sloping ground. 

(e.g. each plantable item in TGC lacked the ability to "slope" with sloping ground and would always extend evenly with the first point of contact, even if it meant floating in mid air). 

Maybe it's fixed now but it wasn't back then before I quit playing TGC.

[Kablammo11]

1) No jagged edges, provided you smooth them yourself properly using the Unity smooth brush. Pot bunkers are currently not implemented, they are on the to-do-list, or so we're told. Generally, the roundness of things is not so much an issue, although any roundness in a computer graphics environment is mainly an illusion created by many short straight lines. If these lines are too long, you get the jaggedy look. It's a question of resolution - and TGC probably skimped a little bit in that department. CF is much more detailled.

 

2) Yes, if your items are too big, that will be a problem with CF as well. That's not a TGC programmers goof, I'd say, but a common occurrence due to basic geometry. Possible remedies are 1) to be careful what you plant on steep slopes and 2) to have a much wider choice of plantable objects, each more or less suitable for extreme locations. TGC uses prefabricated themes which offer very little variety, whereas CF gives designers complete freedom to import the textures, billboards, trees, stones and objects they see fit. 

 

The GNCA of TGC is a slightly simplistic tool that is designed to empower softcore armchair architects using a game console, the sort of "Ah, shucks! How cool is that!"-crowd that can only be expected to work with prefabricated templates. CF is rooted in the Unity game engine as well, but allows for much more precise interactions and customizations and is by far more performant and powerful. On the downside, it requires a bit more time, work and effort to use it properly. More freedom and more choice here comes at the price of more toil and more complexity. Vader jr., should you ever care to start up the CourseForge and start building, your past GNCA experience will be of no help at all.

[shimonko]

1. I just had a look at TGC's course creator to see what you mean and must say I've got no idea what they're doing. Some funny shadow for the bunker lip? In CF though, bunkers are a bit like, hmmm, I can't think of any other analogy, a contraceptive diaphragm. Because the terrain typically has insufficient resolution for sharp walls, CF essentially digs a coarse hole out of the terrain and a inserts a high resolution bunker mesh. Steep deep walls like pot bunkers can be problematic still, hence their delayed appearance.

 

2. Trees have an origin point which the engine positions the tree on the terrain by. If that origin point is at the very base of the trunk, then one side of the trunk will float on sloping ground. The solution is to model a bit more of the trunk below the origin, or sink the tree into the ground more (Unity has a 'ground offset' parameter for this).

[sirputterman]

  in the  CA for tw when you planted a tree or an object you could "plant it into the ground at whatever height. So if it was a bigger object  and you were planting  on the top of a hill but one part of the object "floated" you could adjust the depth it was planted so that it buried the floating part into the ground. Is that possible to do also manually with the CF?   

[Vader jr.]

Thanks for the replies.  I understand now.

My apologies for using the word "goofed" in question #2, as I didn't realize that was a Unity based issue (not a programmer issue).  

The only reason I made a big deal about the "floating" plants is because GNCD automatically plants things at random all over the course without any input from the author. 

I'm glad to hear that CF requires much more time, effort and skill level than GNCD.

[shimonko]

  in the  CA for tw when you planted a tree or an object you could "plant it into the ground at whatever height. So if it was a bigger object  and you were planting  on the top of a hill but one part of the object "floated" you could adjust the depth it was planted so that it buried the floating part into the ground. Is that possible to do also manually with the CF?   

 

Unity allows you to plant trees individually and have full control over their position (including vertical position), plus it allows you to 'paint' trees on the terrain. The latter is recommended for performance reasons and wind interaction, but individual control of each tree is lost. They can still be lowered as I mentioned in the previous post, but every same tree in the scene would also be lowered.

[IanK]

I use the GNCD in TGC and despite a few issues I think you can get some very nice results, if you put the time in. Regarding jagged edges to bunkers, you just have to use one of the blurred brushes to flatten the edge. It acts very much like a smoothing tool.
I've never had a problem with plantable items hanging in the air.
I think GNCD is a great starting point for budding course creators and I'm sure that many people will migrate from GNCD to CF.
I think that TGC has actually been good news for PG in getting more people interested in course design.

Ian

[sirputterman]

Unity allows you to plant trees individually and have full control over their position (including vertical position), plus it allows you to 'paint' trees on the terrain. The latter is recommended for performance reasons and wind interaction, but individual control of each tree is lost. They can still be lowered as I mentioned in the previous post, but every same tree in the scene would also be lowered.

hmm too bad it doesn't have an option to do individual trees or all trees the same with the "paint" tree feature. Yes it is painstaking doing it individually but the results are much more realistic. I have to admit planting trees was one part of designing that use to take me forever because of that but the end results were satisfying.

[Kablammo11]

I place my trees individually, sirputtermann - with a size 1 diameter tree planting paintbrush. It goes without saying that no tree should be allowed to grow where I don't want it to. One problem with the Unity tree brush is that you can't rotate or (accurately) resize the trees, they all are identical clones. You can select to have their size and color randomly varied, but there is no control - it can lead to freakish excesses or strangely uniform results.

So, just to avoid any possible confusion: When shimonko says you can paint trees on the terrain, you still get to choose if you want to place just a single one or create a full forest (which would look boring, with always the same tree in it).

If you want yet more control, you can import a tree as a mesh object and handle it as you see fit - but do this too often and your processor will quit on you. 

[sirputterman]

thanks for the info . In the CA  you could use the forest tool to do mass plantings or you  could pick a tree and then set a variance in hieght by setting a difference in height scale and go about "dropping" trees of the same type wherever you wanted.. So Yes you would be working with one type of tree but it could be 10  ft high and the next one could be 30 ft high or 100 ft high if you wanted you could then go back to each individual tree aned resize it again to the height you wanted and rotate the tree also. I was hoping  (and maybe that is something that could be done later ) that  CF would have that ability. Again it was very time consming but it gave the different looks that you want.  

[Dazmaniac]

Sir P,

 

It isn't actually Course Forge that you use to plant trees and add 3D objects. Course Forge is used to draw out the holes, apply the textures to the areas you have drawn and plant the tees and pins.

 

All terrain sculpting and modelling is done using Unity.

 

I believe all, or most, of what you refer to regards planting trees is possible within Unity.

 

[sirputterman]

Thanks for  the info Daz  

[Gasman]

I'm new to the forum & just wanted to say hello to everyone who is on board with this game.
I've read as much as I can over the past months but now the early access release date is potentially close I need to be educated in a few areas.

When C F is completed & released can I design & play a complete golf course or do I need additional program's to make this possible.(if additional program's are needed,what are they?).
I watched the Mike Jones hole design video & he explains the process very well but I'm unsure how to add bridges,paths,tee markers etc.

[IanD]

Welcome to the forum, but alas, you've likely missed information within this forum regarding the CF and other details which answer your questions above.

 

Currently... to create a course, you need Unity. The CF will only work inside Unity. Not to say it will always be this way, but likely so for some time. So, learning the tools for Unity now, would aid in how to work within creating a landscape.

 

As to adding bridges, paths, tee markers etc...  there are numerous ways to do this currently. None of them require the CF either. Unity will allow you to do many things, but you may find other 3D programs easier or better suited. Importing them into Unity and utilisng them will be the next stage. Unity creates the landscape for which the CF overlays the course.

[Gasman]

Thanks for the reply Ian.

I'm not sure my skill set will be up to using Unity to create courses,although i will look into the possibility of educating myself.
Is Unity accessible enough for the average person to get to grips with or is it only for those with an extensive knowledge in development?
I will happily settle for playing Perfect golf but i would really prefer to spend my time in the CF.
Btw what version of Unity is recommended?


Thanks

[IanD]

Two Courses to aid in understanding Unity. ;

 

Unity Enviromental Series

Unity 3D Concepts

 

Both of these are free, but may need signing up. They then keep a progress of what you have seen, in each chapter.

The chapters are repeatable and great ways of choosing bitesize pieces of what to learn. You don't need to learn everything, just how to create landscapes and the general interface. Take things gradually and you'll slowly begin to understand what possabilities can be achieved.

 

As to what version.. well, the guys here will want to keep up with the latest version. However, when they do release, I dare say they will stipulate which version is being supported. I was using 4.3.

[Gasman]

Looks like a good foundation to get things started before C F arrives.

Appreciate your help.... Thank you Ian.

[Vader jr.]

The GNCA of TGC is a slightly simplistic tool that is designed to empower softcore armchair architects using a game console, the sort of "Ah, shucks! How cool is that!"-crowd that can only be expected to work with prefabricated templates. CF is rooted in the Unity game engine as well, but allows for much more precise interactions and customizations and is by far more performant and powerful. On the downside, it requires a bit more time, work and effort to use it properly. More freedom and more choice here comes at the price of more toil and more complexity. Vader jr., should you ever care to start up the CourseForge and start building, your past GNCA experience will be of no help at all.

 

GNCD is not limited to creating pre-fabricated course templates for "armchair architects" as you called them.   That statement all by itself is a bit condescending IMO, since it directly implies that you're a "real" course architect while everybody else using GNCD is just a kiddie "armchair architect" and somehow beneath you.  

GNCD allows both pre-fabricated courses and unique courses built from the ground up.  It's not as limited as you imply.

As for attempting to 'shame' GNCD architects simply because it's a "gamepad" based creator, LOL, that's immaterial.   If you honestly believe that using a mouse/keyboard makes you inherently better than a designer using a "gamepad"......then I suggest you compare screenshots from Willow Heath versus screenshots from GNCD's best course architects.  

The best GNCD courses are far more creative and imaginative than Willow Heath.  It's like comparing night and day.

Willow Heath is a nice course and I'm glad it's being released with PG.  It's a very professional design.  But it's not a "wow" factor course and it's not even close to being as fun looking or creative as the best GNCD courses. Thus I don't think your comment about "armchair architects" is a fair one since you could learn some things by studying the designs of GNCD's best architects.  They are more skilled IMO.

Not trying to start 'camp' warfare here (his camp, my camp, their camp).  So please, people, just let Kablammo respond in his own words without coming to his defense and starting 'camp' warfare.  He's capable of defending his own positions.  No need for a flame war.

While I don't expect my GNCD experience to be of much help in CF, I have absolutely no doubt that I'll learn CF quite easily.  I don't see anything about the Unity environment that seems particularly frightening to learn or master.  I don't see it as the ultimate software boogie man that you portray, lol. 

I'm sure it's more challenging and time consuming than GNCD, and I'm glad it is, but I'll master it without much difficulty regardless of anything you may think.

I also believe that my course designs will be far more creative than anything I've seen created by CF so far, which to be honest, hasn't impressed me in terms of 'creativity' and uniqueness.  

Creativity and imagination are just as important as the actual tools used to create a course, especially when a minimum base level of tools already exist for both camps. 

Being able to create new textures is great but the best courses of GNCD are still better looking than the best courses of PG right now.  Custom texures will only matter once the overall design of PG's best courses begin to rival those of TGC. 

In a few months when CF gets released to "open beta" I'll prove it by not only mastering CF without much difficulty, but also creating courses far more creative than anything I've seen so far on this board.     I'm sure the same is true for many of GNCD's course designers.   You'll see many competing architects with far more unique designs.

And the users of PG will be the ultimate beneficiary of greater creativity.  Right now it's just a monopoly of a few designers with limited creativity.   Necessary for now I guess, but the users of PG will benefit greatly from more creativity.

[Kablammo11]

Woof, young Vader...!

GNCD is a bit easier to start working with than CF, for instance, it can be handled with a console controller - let's not rule out the possibility that dedicated designers can use it to create beautiful courses, but operating the thing is definitely not everybody's cup of tea when it comes to CF. You are right, there was a a teensy bit of camp war in my reply - and a whole lot more of that in yours. I want everybody who is with TGC to enjoy their game and have a good time with it and I'm sorry if I came across as condescending.

Your opinions about my course, Willow Heath, are protected by free speech. You may diss me as a designer as much as you want, I honestly don't care, but the other courses you've seen around here are real-life golf courses, so please do not blame PP as unimaginative for truthfully copying existing layouts. 

So we'll get to enjoy your creative contributions soon? Can't wait. Dazzle us!

[shimonko]

Don't forget than when TGC was released, the courses were very average.  TGC courses have improved immensely in the 9 months since it became public and the game optimized, and some now look great. Just compare Links' courses at the start to the end.

 

Courses in PG have already been improving as well, sometimes radically overnight. I can't say I've played a TGC course that looks as good to me as Crystal Pines or Southampton on PG, but admittedly I've only played a few of the more popular official TGC courses and don't know which the best courses are. But who cares, TGC will always do some things better, PG will do some things better. I think it's just nice to have two games available. 

 

As far as creativity goes, the devs were developing courses while developing CF. Some of there courses were created by staff who had never designed courses before, the purpose to make sure course creation would be easy, not to be creative. I highly doubt Mike has had the time to be creative. Most (all?) of CF's courses are purposely recreating real courses with fidelity, so creativity is again not the focus. 

 

CF beta testers were not tasked with creating a course but to test CF. Monotonously creating 18 holes is waste of time as far as testing goes and you're just asking for a lot of rework when something changes. The only experienced course designer I'm aware of who is active on the beta test team wasn't even invited to test CF, but the game (sorry if I forgot someone).

 

After CF is released and people have become familiar with it, that's when creativity will start. Unity isn't hard in the least for anyone with 3d experience, indeed the engine's foremost quality is its simplicity compared to other engines. I actually find TGC's designer harder.  But Unity can be overwhelming at first for those not used to interfaces with hundreds of options, much like a TV remote control is to my parents.