37 replies to this topic

[Ted_Ball]

Way back before a playable Perfect Golf was released we had many discussions speculating on the format the game would take and the features that would be included. I started a thread called 'Rubbish' which was a reference to a famous mayor of North Sydney whose name was Ted Mack. On the streets of the business district of North Sydney, which is across the Harbour Bridge from Sydney itself, there was a problem with overflowing rubbish bins after the lunch time crowds discarded their wrappers and plastic bowls and uneaten foodstuffs. Ted Mack removed the rubbish bins. The problem was solved.

 

I used Ted Mack's brilliant solution and related it to the problem of an avatar in golf games. I asked the question, "Why do we need an avatar at all?" (Of course this solution was howled down by the Links tragics who couldn't conceive of a game with no avatar. They had grown up with that crotchety old Arnie sprite and loved his avuncular presence and even that ghastly baby poo brown shirt he wore. I'm sure they still think the same way!)

 

You will probably ask, at this point, "What's the problem with an avatar?" Go on - ask away.

 

Well let's consider the avatar dude and the many ways he (yep) throws out the whole concept of PC golf and causes more trouble than the dead eyed dude is worth.

 

                                                                                                                                                   (to be continued...)

[Ted_Ball]

(...continued)

 

 

"What's the problem with an avatar?" Well I'm glad you asked.

 

 

1.  The cost of motion capture. 

                         To do it right you really need to sink some heavy dollars into it. You would need a male, a female, and it would be a probably be a

                         good idea to do some adolescents as well. And then you should do left-handed ones naturally. In this era you should be having a lot

                         of detail. No broken wrists and monkey hands. You might have some sort of realistic waggle and a changing direction shuffle

                         (like TGC2). You might even have some dignified post-shot reactions - picking up your tee, leaning with the shot shape, etc, etc.

                         This is an enourmous cost if done right.

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                      (to be continued - with many more problems...)

[jmk59]

Didn't LINKS2003 move away from the original mocap avatar for this very reason ( I honestly can't remember their exact reason)?

[Ted_Ball]

I don't know John. I'm not really a Links person. I bought Links LS 1998 I think - judging by the box covers I just checked on Google - and the Sergio one which I dumped.

 

It looked to me like it was sprites made from photos. (Sprites means no different angles of the golfer I assume.) I wasn't aware of any mocapping in the series. Interesting.

[Ted_Ball]

(...continued)

 

 

2.  The application of various swing types to the avatar.

                         If we take Perfect Golf as an example we have RTS-M, RTS-H, MS, and 3C. MS and 3C use a swing gauge. The player watches the

                         swing gauge to determine power and snap for 3C and power and swing path for MS. The dude stands there waiting for the

                         command. Once the swings have been finalised on the gauge the dude comes to life and has a crack. Could that be any less lifelike

                         and natural? The Real Time Swing is much more natural in that the club follows the mouse input - to a degree! There is a horrible

                         delay at the top of the backswing for both full shots and less than full shots. It is more pronounced in the short game and

                         dramatically reduces any sort of rhythm visually. It is more or less a canned response to the input. Play a pitch shot of 35

                         feet where it is necessary (e.g. over a bunker). It is necessary to take the backswing to below knee height to reach the

                         distance required yet the animation shows the backswing going back above the waist (from memory - will check).

                         Obviously PP didn't have the resources to code a Perfect animation tied to the mouse input. This is very clunky and the

                         immersion is lost. The TGC2 animation is married to the mouse input quite well although the 1:1 tempo doesn't make

                         a lot of sense.

 

 

                                                                                                                    (to be continued...with more problems!)

[Ted_Ball]

(...continued)

 

 

3.   The necessity to have a customised avatar.

                            Let's face it - in 2018 it is de rigeur to have a game set-up function where players can customise their dude. People seem         

                            to like building an avatar to match themselves in clothing, face, body, height, body shape, skin colour. There are

                            games (e.g. Don Bradman Cricket) where you can get the detail pretty close to real life. If you're going to get really

                            serious, there are sliders for stubble opacity, body hair colour, crows feet, tear trough, orbicularis oris, massatter

                            height etc. But it's never 100% successful and will still look like a cartoon version of yourself. If you choose to have a

                            fictional avatar there has to be provision for mohawks, tattoos, crazy outfits, gorilla suits, clown suits, diving suits.

                            This means a complex swag of coding and graphic work. If a game doesn't have that provision every dude looks

                            exactly the same. I'm sorry. We don't all look the same. (Thank goodness)

 

 

                                                                                                      (to be continued...with more problems)

[JoeBradley]

Got to agree so far, Ted. Personally, I always prefer first-person over third-person in any game: shooters, racing, skiing, whatever. Makes no sense to me watching an avatar, even in golf sims, except to use the club head as a power guide. But then racing games have cam view, follow view etc along with the more realistic cockpit view to cater for all tastes, so can't see the avatar being ditched anytime soon, despite the expense and clunky implementation. Be good to have the option, though.

[Ted_Ball]

Yeah Joe. I'm going to try my best to provide an alternative to conservative thinking. I am sure the old timers couldn't possibly change their minds and yet we could change the worst parts of this world by the simple act of changing our minds.

[Ted_Ball]

It appears some people just can't wait for the answers and solutions.

 

Writing these novels takes more than ' a few minutes '.

[Ted_Ball]

(...continued)

 

 

4.   Getting the dude to look natural and a swing to look like a swing.

                         The TGC1 avatar was laughable. It was ridiculous. A stumpy legged fool with a hunch back and I apologise to any person who looks

                          like that. I respect those people but to put it in a golf game is maddening. The TGC 2 avatar looks like some bloke or gal who has

                          never swung a club or had a lesson in their life. Appallingly bad mocapping. For golf games that developers seem to think needs

                          an avatar their decisions and the results are shockingly counter-productive. I took one look at the TGC1 Quasimodo and

                          dismissed the game then and there in spite of hanging out for a golf game. If you are going to have an avatar it's the first thing

                          people have to deal with standing on the first tee - some'thing' that follows you around through each round and on through your

                          career (if you had one) no matter how much you'd like to shake off this sorry excuse for an alter ego. Some of them you wouldn't

                          want to be seen dead with in the clubhouse. PG's dude swings OK to be honest - but that horrible grip and that low poly detail

                          detracts badly from what would be expected in this era.

 

 

                                                                                                             (to be continued...with yet another problem)

[Ted_Ball]

I notice up in the other section of the forum - outside these dungeon walls - people are starting to talk about the impossibility of an avatar-free PC world. Yet another prediction of mine comes true. I'm telling you, kitty kats, there are so many people who refuse to think outside the tee box. And that's in spite of the enormous benefits that they should be imagining.

 

More to come - more stuff to be howled down and dismissed with an airy wave of the hand and turned backs. I can read you like a book.

 

(Strewth! I'm starting to sound like GB. You and me against the world GB.)

[Kablammo11]

check this one out, Ted:

 

http://www.perfectparallel.com/topic/9888-whats-going-on/page-19#entry155307

 

The obvious difference between a sim based system and a game is that there's less use for a character animation in the sim so obviously lower on the list of priorities. I guess it begs the question - would a better PG with even better physics, graphics, user interface and a career mode be of any use as a 'game' if it existed without an avatar?

 

That's Mike Jones ruminating out aloud. Mayhap you are not as alone as you think... and thanks for your thought-provoking contributions. So many thoughts, so dearly missed, still doomed to wither away unprovoked in this world...

[Buck]

I'm all for a first person golf game, but it is a different type of experience than what we have now and traditionally there has been.

 

The "avatar view" in golf really has a lot of origin in wanting to be watching Pro's on TV in that format, etc.

This is similar to other sports games (the TV presentation and angles). 

 

Notice how few, if any, football, soccer, hockey, baseball or tennis games are actually from a true first person view?

 

There's a lot of reasons an avatar/wider view makes sense. 

It's nice to see your surroundings and peripheral area in a way that simply doesn't translate to a 1st person view on a 2D screen experience.

 

VR - however - is a differing cat for sure

A VR version of this game could be great..

 

Call me when Trackman Sim is suddenly interesting in developing VR games..   

[JCat04]

I notice up in the other section of the forum - outside these dungeon walls - people are starting to talk about the impossibility of an avatar-free PC world. Yet another prediction of mine comes true. I'm telling you, kitty kats, there are so many people who refuse to think outside the tee box. And that's in spite of the enormous benefits that they should be imagining.

 

More to come - more stuff to be howled down and dismissed with an airy wave of the hand and turned backs. I can read you like a book.

 

(Strewth! I'm starting to sound like GB. You and I against the world GB.)

 

Your predictions are becoming alarmingly accurate Ted.  You are to golf game forums, what Q Anon is to 8 chan Deep State discussion!

[Ted_Ball]

I've made a short video as an adjunct to Post #5      2.  The application of various swing types to the avatar.

 

I need to pitch over a bunker with a carry of 32 feet.  Notice where my RTS backswing pauses around half-calf height. That's how far back I need to take the club to carry the 32 feet with RTS. Not a very realistic backswing is it? Unless I have extremely powerful wrists and a clubhead travelling at supersonic speed. 

 

Anyway there's the slightest start to the downswing as my mouse changes direction BUT THEN the canned effect takes over and my club goes back above my waist. What the.....?!! I've slowed the video down to show what happens. The canned backswing is actually where a normal person would need to take the club to pitch the shot to where the ball lands. This is so crummy but I suppose it was just too hard to make the RTS work and they probably said just go with that and move on. Oh the problems.

 

[Ted_Ball]

... and thanks for your thought-provoking contributions. So many thoughts, so dearly missed, still doomed to wither away unprovoked in this world...

 

Thanks K11. I think we have a strange mutual respect happening. I'm the biggest fan of your courses. I can't even be critical of Karen because I know that dear girl means a lot to you. After my 'crystal ball of the forum stalwarts in the old folks home' thread I kicked myself for not including you as K11 who locked himself in his room for years and wouldn't come out till a PG2 and Unity upgrade appeared.

 

But it's cool down here in the dungeon. The turnkeys have given me my own set of keys and I come and go as I please now. I let myself in for this thread. I have some visitors occasionally, which is nice.

[Kablammo11]

Thanks for your kind words. I liked your crystal ball post and did not feel left out of it at all. Do be critical of Karen - the course, not the patron saint - if you want. I trust your judgement. 

[Ted_Ball]

(...continued)

 

 

5.   The perception of the avatar from a realism viewpoint.

                         People might think it is necessary to be able to view the avatar to play a golf game. Think about this for a minute. For a game that

                         promotes itself as a realistic simulation of golf it breaks the first rule straight away. In real life we don't stand several yards away

                         from ourselves and watch ourselves swing while we swing. In real life you might imagine yourself swinging and what you might

                         look like - so you could argue that to see the dude is simply the same as imagining yourself - in some weird existentialist

                         manner. I guarantee that in your imaginings you would look better than our dude (but then again, maybe not). It's very

                         strange that we have accepted this awful truth - that all golf games have to have this dude. It's like developers take that

                         as the basis upon which their games are built. It doesn't make sense. It does not follow any form of realism. There is no

                         better example than when putting. It really was a breath of fresh air to be able to disappear the dude. I thnk even the good

                         folk who are arguing for an avatar would agree. Who hasn't had the horrifying experience of the cam following the path

                         of the putt and seeing two disembodied eyeballs. Yowzah!! Or even worse - when the cam ends up at a close-up of the

                         posterial region. (Shudder) I won't add any images. It's too disturbing.

 

 

 

                                                                                            (to be continued and leading up to something...)

[shimonko]

No simulator golf game has an avatar - we prefer that. John Daly's ProStroke on PC had a 1st and 3rd person view.  Not sure why you think people think an avatar is necessary. Tens of thousands of games allow 1st or 3rd person, or both. It's a style - it's nothing revolutionary or thinking outside the box to remove an avatar in a golf game.

[Buck]

No simulator golf game has an avatar - we prefer that. John Daly's ProStroke on PC had a 1st and 3rd person view.  Not sure why you think people think an avatar is necessary. Tens of thousands of games allow 1st or 3rd person, or both. It's a style - it's nothing revolutionary or thinking outside the box to remove an avatar in a golf game.

With the way the current game and swings are designed, it's a little hard to imagine no avatar since it's used to gauge power on multiple methods of input.

On the simulator, naturally you don't have an avatar…
You are the avatar as you are physically swing a real club & hitting a real ball yourself