37 replies to this topic

[shimonko]

You're prioritizing course immersion though - I do to in simulators - many with simulators don't. Many with steering wheel setups prioritize immersion in racing games by being inside the car, but just as many with wheels prefer playing outside the car. An avatar on simulators wouldn't be unpopular for similar reasons - e.g. a better view of the hole lessening the dependence on flyovers, minimap & roaming.

 

Also third-person viewpoint can transport the player into the shoes of the avatar, avatar immersion. Makes people feel like they have a nice swing (JNPG), but can backfire if not (TGC's first avatar I swear would  make my real golf worse if I played lots). There once was an extremely popular and effective screensaver of the perfect swing, designed to subliminally lock that tempo into the brain from repetition.

 

Pre-simulator days, I never liked real time swings on PG (even though IMO they're 100% on TGC's), because I feel intentionally basing power on backswing length is a recipe for disaster.  Velocity at impact is what counts, not distance. No-one thinks about how far to press a brake pedal down when driving, nor do they look at the pedal. One should be able to do a real time swing just as well without looking at the avatar. Is an avatar really need to gauge power?

[Ted_Ball]

No simulator golf game has an avatar - we prefer that. John Daly's ProStroke on PC had a 1st and 3rd person view.  Not sure why you think people think an avatar is necessary. Tens of thousands of games allow 1st or 3rd person, or both. It's a style - it's nothing revolutionary or thinking outside the box to remove an avatar in a golf game.

 

There has been opposition to an avatar-free game in the last few days and there was plenty in the original Rubbish thread which makes me think there are plenty of people would find it hard to accept. It seems to me that it would be hard for long term PC golfers to accept anything but an avatar. I'm going to try to point out to those people that there might be an alternative which would benefit the computer golfing community as a whole. As for other game genres - they are another country but, as you say, a lot of games cater for the third person view to cover all bases. 

 

I'm glad you use the term revolutionary. John Daly's ProStroke (2010) was indeed revolutionary as a concept but it wasn't successful enough to raise sales to any great height. (Check out the crazy bent left arm of that dude. Carumba!). The three contemporary computer golf games (excluding WGT) all have avatars (I'm guessing with Rory) and I doubt whether any of their developers would have considered anything else. No revolutions there.

 

For a revolution to be successful it has to be embraced by the populace - the serfs, the proletariat and the bureaucracy. It's interesting to realise that in the beginnings of the Russian Revolution the serfs were violently opposed to communism. They were content to maintain the stability of life under the control of the ruling classes. In the end they had no choice. It is also interesting that communism in it's purist form only lasted not much more than 18 months. After that it evolved into authoritarianism - much like game developers (joking, joking). The only one who tried to keep the original ideal going was Trotsky. I identify with poor old Leon and sometimes fear a symbolic icepick to the head down here in the dungeon.

 

Nevertheless, I will continue my revolutionary march.

[Buck]

You're prioritizing course immersion though

Given we are talking about 2d computer or tv screen, often at distance, I just find it more enjoyable to see the surroundings a bit, no question. In VR, I'd feel totally different. I can speak endlessly about that as I'm a pilot and an avid flight simmer in 2d and in VR at times in the past. All are just quite different, but each has some serious strengths. There really isn't a right or wrong or even necessarily better experience - it's all about the priorities, to your point.

 

Is an avatar really need to gauge power?

 
I encourage you to try playing RTS-M for a few rounds and covering your view of the avatar during swings and report back..
 
Assuming you haven't committed suicide or simply destroyed your equipment out of frustration, I'll look forward to hearing what you think.

[Ted_Ball]

I tried it a few weeks ago. Not at Tour Pro. It was a reasonable facsimile of a player who needs a bit of work on their swing.

 

I'll go and play nine holes at Amateur (baby steps) and see how I go.

[Ted_Ball]

That was with RTS-M. I used the F5 to remove the dude from my FOV.

[Buck]

I don't know...

Given how niche all of this already is, do we really think a completely avatar free, no way to gauge power other than feel (with an unrestricted mouse that is widely adjustable from machine to machine) is something anyone is really looking for?

Golf games need to cast a wider net, not a smaller one - at least in my eyes.

If it's not full blown VR, I personally would rather see my avatar and enjoy a great traditional presentation.
A first person experience I think will be best served in VR.

[Ted_Ball]

You have to come at it from a different way of thinking Buck. 

 

Traditional thinking has got the whole PC golf industry into a niche of its own making. I don't want to give away any details yet but there just might be a way where anybody can pick up a golf game and be competitive in a competition that still favours experience, nouse, determination, green reading ability, nerves of steel, knowledge of the real game and local knowledge so that a player can rise to the top but at the same time people without any of those skills can still match those players to a degree without the huge disparity that comes with various computer equipment (mouse, controller, clicking abilty) and skill levels with those things. I've said too much already.

 

Robust competition is the key to this whole affair.

[Ted_Ball]

Let me add that it doesn't necessarily mean you can't have a bloody avatar.

[Buck]

It all sounds good to me Ted...

Sorry to interject with the flow here
I'm out.. Cheers

[Ted_Ball]

No probs.  

[shimonko]

 
I encourage you to try playing RTS-M for a few rounds and covering your view of the avatar during swings and report back..
 
Assuming you haven't committed suicide or simply destroyed your equipment out of frustration, I'll look forward to hearing what you think.

That's why I never touched it before--because one needed to look at the avatar to gauge power and to me, that isn't how I like golf.  I've either have to go completely abstracted from a swing, like a click meter that any first timer can get the hang of immediately, or full sim.

[shimonko]

I'm glad you use the term revolutionary. John Daly's ProStroke (2010) was indeed revolutionary as a concept but it wasn't successful enough to raise sales to any great height. 

ProStroke was also a good case study on why any particular feature won' t make a game. I can't count the number of times I've read posts here that say career mode or whatever will save this game.

[Buck]

That's why I never touched it before--because one needed to look at the avatar to gauge power and to me, that isn't how I like golf. I've either have to go completely abstracted from a swing, like a click meter that any first timer can get the hang of immediately, or full sim.

Fair enough
Agree to disagree I guess.

I've gotten an enormous amount of enjoyment for over 16 years now from mouse and controller swing interfaces.

There's a lot of great fun to be had in the middle of 3C and full Sim.

[shimonko]

I'm sure there is, especially if people don't play real golf and haven't a game to protect. I think we agree on more things that it appears - that the avatar can't be removed with the current real time swings, similar to the BLI can't be removed with the current grid. But there are better ways that can allow it to be removed.

[Ted_Ball]

Here's the first three holes at Royal Birkdale. Full screen is best.

 

Amateur level RTS-M. F5 to move the cam to just in front of the dude's head.  I kept part of the dude in the longer putts to show the hole. If I angle the cam at the ball (like in short putts) for the longer ones the cam doesn't follow the ball in F5. There were no pitches or chips in this video. It can get a bit harder to judge distance on half shots but wouldn't that be Perfect. It would take a bit more experience to nail those shots.

 

Personally it was really enjoyable to hit shots like this. Fiddling with the F5 cam is time consuming but playing the shot and getting that unsullied view of the ball flight is wonderful.

 

[Ted_Ball]

Now...where was I?

 

Oh yeah.

I got to thinking about certain things while playing against a recording by JMK59. I was determined to play at TourPro level without complaint no matter how frustrating the exercise was for me. John plays 3C and I was persevering with RTS-M. He unselfishly putted Naked (without grids or BLI) and I knew I could match him on the greens but the rest of my game was a frustrating nightmare. Admittedly I haven't done much practice but I couldn't hit the ball straight and at times my shots were dreadfully wide - out of bounds, in water and in trees and unplayable. The fun slowly drains away and I walk off.

 

It's not that I mind being beaten. That's not an issue. I like a challenge and John is a very good player and sets a good standard and shoots scores that I try to achieve. What I do mind is not being able to compete in a computer game at a high level no matter how hard I might try or no matter how many years I've been trying. Winning (or losing) is meaningless but I do believe that competition is essential for a healthy, satisfied and well-attended community. We have a small community divided dramatically by skill level and results. You could mount an argument for the small numbers being directly caused by that divide and that divide is almost directly caused by the skill a player has in using a mouse or controller whether it's 3C, RTS, MS or RTS-C.

 

Let me put it another way. We all pretty much know the concept of how to play the real game of golf well. Keep it on the fairway, choose the right club, hit it on the green, lag it up and sink the putt. Unfortunately executing those things in practice in PG is a long way from being successful for a lot of people. If we all played TourPro the spread of results would be huge. Different levels with assist and aids for people who struggle is not the answer.

 

I'll explain why.

 

                                                                                                                                                          (to be continued...)

[JoeF]

If you want to play at Tour Pro you have to work like a Tour Pro - practice, practice, practice.

[Ted_Ball]

(...continued in another lifetime)