33 replies to this topic

[Ted_Ball]

I was playing Shinnecock Hills yesterday after your (Ted_Ball) and I got to hole 10, I think it was and I could not get the ball to hold on the green no matter what I did, I was like 10, 11 who knows shots and getting nowhere close. 

 

Yeah bgast. That must be the short par 4. It might be Beginner level but you still have to play 'golf' to get it close to the hole. I've been experimenting with spin - an art which is invaluable. But with the elevations it's a difficult hole. In fact I've tried hitting into the upslope and driving short and various other ideas. The pin position can change everything.

[bgast1]

What would be the difference between say a 10 and 12 stimp? I played Spyglass this morning and was doing good until the very end. I ended up +2. I played with all the parameters on easy and the stimp at 10. It looks like I need to spend a practice session determining the range of clubs when chipping and pitching. I have always just done it by feel but that doesn't seem to work that well. My scores could come down if I could get the ball closer to the pin. One thing I discovered this morning was that the loftier clubs hit close to what the caddie suggests. Changing clubs based upon elevation seems to work for longer distances though.  Incidentally the as far as I was concerned the eye candy on this course was nothing short of superb. Huge props to the designer.

[Ted_Ball]

After playing a lot at 12 stimp 10 would seem slow. It takes adjusting. I use 12 as a template.

 

I had a pitching chart for a while but now I take 30 yards as a horizontal wedge - around the height of the dude's belt - and adjust from there. 

Chipping is much like putting for me in determining power. It depends on your default cam position but I gauge power from where the shaft or club head is on the dude's feet and legs. You get a 'feel' for the swing after a while.

 

Approach shots require experience of carry, roll out, spin and landing area. A great challenge even at Beginner.

 

And I agree. A fabulous course by Tekbud. 

[Ted_Ball]

I'm now tending to playing at Amateur. At that level the tempo starts to kick in or at least becomes noticeable.

 

You can still go into overswing with confidence but the penalty increases - but with a nice balance. 

My tempo has stabilized but I think it was having the 3 second rule causing several duffed shots in the easier levels. A lazy overswing (pretending to wind up) and you'll chunk it. But getting used to the time limit was good training for a stable tempo. Or it might be I'm playing a lot.

 

So it's Amateur or Bust. I like the name 'Amateur'. It's a good starting point. And that mouse golf swing is a thing of beauty especially at Amateur. 

[Ted_Ball]

Woah...that Amateur RTS-M swing can get away if you're lazy. 

 

But it's damn Perfect.

 

 

 

I tried 3C at Amateur on the range. I even used a controller (legit) and it seemed on parity when I could get the dang thing to work. They were close enough to RTS-M to have a good competition along with Motion Swing. 

 

 

Yep, like Buck, I'm playing more golf and enjoying it more than ever. Recordings are the only competition I need.

 

 

Nevertheless, I feel an Amateur All-In comp forming. Bring along any old controller you like. Everyone may as well be hitting it straight(ish) and having some dang fun. 

[Ted_Ball]

Well I went low in this experiment after teaching myself how to after being underrun by applicants.

 

With RTS-M I could shoot -10 at Beginner in benign conditions. I suppose, therefore, I am a high class Beginner. Fair enough? Now I can find, by way of my scores, a starting point and see how a change in conditions affects the scores.

 

Beginner is a hoot. The quickest way to learn a course for me would be have a couple of rounds at Beginner. You can work out Perfect landing areas in three minutes. Sure it's dead straight but there are difficulties all the same.

Putting is important. It is its own discipline. I used BLI for speed reading. (It's funny. I have played recordings of grid users some of whom are still miss-reading putts badly.) There is no deviation apart from wind and or stance (?). Increasing stimp, hardness and even wind doesn't increase the difficulty enough to bring scores back to a more 'realistic' area.

A tough course will always add 5 shots and potentially more but the score remains unrealistic.

The worst thing about Beginner is that it's hard to move the ball in the air with the mouse swing path. 

 

Hacker is a lot of fun. 

Tempo doesn't really kick in but a swing path adjustment makes minor movement. Not enough to get you into trouble.

As with Beginner, you can overswing with no real penalty (but watch out for the duffed 3 sec. penalty).

There was the same effect for increased environmental difficulties as Beginner. Scores were only slightly higher than Beginner.

 

But maybe I was getting back into form. So I craved Amateur.

 

Amateur is a beautiful realm. 

Things seem to happen in a natural way. The incremental penalties (or loss of aids) are small enough to keep control but also to increase uncertainty. I've always liked the idea of random effects as a leveller. The problem is there is a cause for every effect in the natural world (discuss.). Amateur solves that problem by introducing a 'random effect' by penalising a bad swing but only by the smallest, margin which is undetectable in your swing. It can throw your ball either way and throw you out as well. 

Overswinging becomes that bit more of a risk for long shots but remains a great weapon to have. 

And the name Amateur is spot on.

 

I'll talk about how to form a comp built around the Amateur level directly.

[bgast1]

I like playing against recorded rounds of myself. I suppose that you can even record a round playing against a recorded round but haven't tried. I have now gotten into using a controller. Can't get the putting down so sometimes to keep myself from getting frustrated instead of motion or whatever it is called, I have to revert to the 3 click method on the controller so that I can at least make some putts.

[Ted_Ball]

Yeah you can record while playing a recording. It doesn't always take though. You can also watch a recording by itself by loading a recording then clicking 'CLEAR' instead of your player's name. You can watch that recording with any cams you like by setting them before loading. That means you might use Player view while playing but Follow while watching it back.

[Ted_Ball]

An Amateur tour?

 

Let's imagine that it was compulsory for everyone to play this tour.

Who would lose from that edict?

The answer, of course, is nobody. 

 

 

Everyone hits the ball straight(ish)...no controversy re devices.

Strategy, short game ability, putting all take more importance.

Competition grows. (It doesn't matter if someone shoots stupidly low.)

[Ted_Ball]

Having settled into Amateur level it has become clear that Amateur is no gimme.

 

At Shinnecock Hills - Difficult pins, Breezy, no grid or BLI - I'm struggling to break par. This has a lot to do with the course itself. I've reduced the stupidity element somewhat but add a little breeze to Shinnecock and it is a tough track to get the approach distances right. Amateur RTS-M is so beautiful though and getting the tempo a bit off will throw the ball off line in a realistic manner (for a simulated tour professional).

 

Now for a competition structure.

 

I can't help noticing that poor old tournament admins are having a troubled time with the whole swing method saga and it's all because some people are hitting the ball too straight !!!? Apparently one must earn this straightness and not have it given to them via a controller. OK. Fair enough. So, therefore, once it has been established that there are only a handful of players capable of hitting straight legitimately (how?) everyone else has to choose an unfamiliar swing method or knuckle down and practice hard to stay within cooee of the best. And not many people can get that close even with dodgy controllers.

 

I have nothing against elite PGers. I admire them. There must be, of course, an elite competition. At the same time there should be a competition that starts at the other end of the spectrum. Where everyone can hit the ball straight. Problem solved. A nursery competition for higher levels for sure but more like a solid basis for an all-encompassing broad-based grassroots competition.

 

Here's how it might look....

[Ted_Ball]

...but not yet.

 

 

I read more about unfair controllers, handicaps, swing method disparity and various cheating ploys and it becomes obvious the solution is to have all players competing at Amateur level. It's an easy and practical solution but very hard to convince people of that.

 

Consider this.

 

There have been solutions discussed and introduced to address those problems - extensive analysis of data, banning controllers, introducing handicaps, cheat messages that appeal to your conscience - but the result is a further diminishing of numbers and therefore competition. It all seems like reactionary problem-chasing which has seemingly resulted in further attrition of players.

 

It reminds me of the Australian welfare system where instead of having a 'living wage' you have a dole which makes it necessary to build a huge public service for administration of the industry as well as an incredibly complex, time-consuming, costly and punitive arrangement of personal auditing and the resulting stress upon people trying to get by.

 

Let's put this into perspective. 

 

You are a tournament director and you have a problem. You have a membership of say 80 people. Within this club there are players at TourPro, Pro, Amateur, Hacker and Beginner. Within each level you have 3Clickers, MS players, RTS players, Controller users. Each of those members play with different frequency according to the time they have to play golf. Some practice, some don't. Some are just starting out and some have been doing this for 30 years. You can see the problem. How can I run a tournament with this diversity and make it fair and equitable?

 

The question I would ask the director is what are you trying to achieve? What are you looking for? It's fine if you were simply providing a platform to find the lowest scorers at PG. But first you have to ban a swing method for gross score comps, introduce handicaps, segregate skill levels, put in place a system of post match checks etc. etc.

 

Handicaps are a good way to illustrate a way to complicate the running of a tournament. OK. A group of players use a dodgy controller that hits the ball straight. It is ascertained that there are differences in the various controllers available. Controllers are banned in gross competition. A handicap comp is the only way to allow controllers. A player can shoot 66 gross with a controller. He is now handicapped and still shoots 66 gross. In fact, the admin have gone around the block to arrive at the same result. What's the point? He still shoots straight and the handicaps tell us nothing (and the saga of re-handicapping continues ad infinitum). 

 

I'm getting closer to explaining how to run a comp where everyone is 'equal' but I'm leaving work now and so I'll get back to you. 

[Ted_Ball]

If I play in Breezy conditions I have a -2 shot handicap. Strong Breeze -3. A very fast stimp might be a further stroke or three.

Perfect to Realistic greens? 1 shot?

Tournament leaders play in tougher conditions. A true test.

Natural and authentic handicapping.

[Ted_Ball]

I really think this "dodgy, straight-hitting controller" controversy is a non-issue.

Especially considering there are further assists for mouse and 3C.

 

In the interests of competition I would give every player a free straight shot off the tee. That, of course, is ridiculous. As an alternative I would allow any thing that helps each player shoot straight. The first thing would be to run a grassroots competition at Amateur level. Then progress from there.

 

I find it interesting to observe another person in a recording (or MP) who is playing at Amateur. In a recent match I finished -2 and my partner shot a +4. We both hit the ball straight off the tee. From that point all sorts of influences come into play which have nothing to do with the level at which we are playing. Wind, lie, elevation, speed of fairways and greens. This is where there is a differentiation between players. Not only from your position of attack but add experience, a golf brain and luck and you will have a range of scoring which would provide an effective competition. Then there is putting. A whole new world.

 

I have also played TourPro guys who hit the ball straight off the tee. It must follow that they can hit a straight approach as well but it's relatively rare to see shots by them that plonk on the pin for a tap in. They don't sink every putt either I can tell you. 

 

Experience comes with course time and golf craft can be taught and learned. And we all know the harder you practice the luckier you become.  

 

But first everyone has to be able to hit straight(ish). Amateur!

 

 

 

I check leaderboards over at OGT and see players struggling at TourPro and Pro. Who knows what their motivation is to play at the tougher levels. That's their secret but I'm sure there would be some that would have a ball at Amateur level. I've been through the backwards evolution and I have never enjoyed this game more over an extended period. All that is needed is a competition for Amateur only - that comes with none of the hand-wringing over devices. 

[Ted_Ball]

I've been playing against recordings by bortimus - a TourPro player. It has given me an insight into the differences (and similarities) between levels.

 

bortimus is a fine TP and shoots low scores most of the time. He has kindly recorded many rounds for us. If you go to Recordings Quick Login and do a search for bortimus (or anyone) you'll get all their recordings at several courses in a list.

 

I'm playing Amateur and I go into the first match confident of out-driving my partner and probably having better control over approaches. So how come he beats me more than not? A good question.

 

Watching a Tour Pro is a revelation. bortimus drives well but rarely goes into overswing. I'm longer by 15 to 20 yards on the big holes. His FIR rate is generally high and similar to mine. Then it gets interesting.

 

Not always accurate with approaches bortimus has developed an excellent short game. Pitching, chipping and sand work are all top notch. He is also a brilliant long range putter. If I can compare my Amateur game to his I have to say I can just match bortimus at approaches and around the greens. I should also say our putting averages are very similar. So why am I getting beaten? It has nothing to do with accuracy or length. It is because he is a more experienced, smarter and persistent golfer. bortimus never goes away. I've been 3 up at times and I get nervous after the turn. It is wonderful golf.

 

If bortimus played Amateur how low could he go? He would probably turn a 65 into a 62 barring miracle shots. I don't think it's possible to consistently shoot -10 at Amateur. There will always be miscalculations and missed putts and the course has a lot to do with the scores. In our matches we might shoot -7 on an easy course but play as well on a tough course and only just break par.

 

In an Amateur versus TouPro match - if you take away the driving component - there's not a huge difference in their respective games. I can hit a short iron shot at TourPro and be reasonably accurate. Pitching and chipping sees no real advantage for the Amateur. Putting is almost exactly the same at any level (depending on device!). 

 

Of course, if the player base all played at Amateur, TourPro players would not bother to compete but if they did everyone would be on a level playing field and if the TPs shot ultra low then anyone else in the comp is capable of doing the same. There are plenty who would not agree but, as I've pointed out, if you gain experience, get smarter, practice and persist you can get scores down into the TP area.

 

Natural handicapping then becomes a further leveller. 

 

OK. I can now compete with bortimus and any other top PG golfers by playing Amateur. I'm sure if bortimus had been live he would agree that those matches we play have been very competitive and a lot of fun.