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In Praise of Motion Swing

How I went from A Mess to MS

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#1 Ted_Ball

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 10:56 AM

Don't you love that moment in gaming when you 'get it' - when it all becomes clear and you experience what they were talking about. That revelation of what the designers were trying to do and you discover it emerging through the haze.
 
Well that happened for me with the Perfect Golf Motion Swing.
 
I'd always been a 3 Clicker and I would still be a 3 Clicker if I had a decent computer but the serendipitous stutter on the swing gauge meant that I reluctantly tried Motion Swinging. 
 
Initially it was frustrating and I was spraying balls all over the range. It took a lot of work and I nearly gave up but there was something there. Probably the main reason I wasn't striking the ball well was my need for a challenge and wanting to make it hard for myself by going straight to minimum aids and possibly no aids. I would probably recommend starting with more assists but hey... But as is normally the case you just want to get out on the course and for me it was a disaster. I couldn't hit any fairway or green and often the ball would be a hundred yards off line. Chipping and bunker play was stupid.
 
It was very important to get back on the range and sort out my swing and get that rhythm. It's not easy to get that consistent and build a clockwork action so that a round of golf isn't an exercise in disgust. The swing eventually became something I could semi-rely on but it still wasn't good enough. I started to work on the swing path and getting the club to a nice position at the top (100%) which is when I discovered the tweaking of the Swing Meter Sensitivity to restrict overswinging on the backswing. That was the first real breakthrough and it meant that I didn't have to move the mouse far which kept control of the swing.
 
Back on the course I started to hit the ball straighter but still more than occasionally had a bad shot and just couldn't nail down any consistency.
 
Back on the range the next exercise was to get that tempo burned in to my head. I wasn't able to successfully do a sort of count 1,2,3,4 - 1. It wasn't at all natural for me. I wasn't improving much out on the course and was going through a period of levelling out with my scoring and still miss-hitting plenty of shots. The tempo was bothering me and I told myself to visualise a real swing - the tempo and timing of a real swing. This was another breakthrough. As in real life there are thoughts going through your head and it's hard to keep it simple. If you can concentrate on that rhythm it does actually work. It's not easy to keep up that level of concentration but if you can simplify it to that visualising - like a caddy reminding you to keep it simple - then it really does work. It's zen-like. Zen and the Art of Swing Maintenance.
 
The next breakthrough is a beauty. It's more of a technical technique. I've got my tempo grooving along nicely but I'm still overswinging and underswinging on the backswing. I figure out that I'm focusing too much on hitting that 100% at the top of the swing. I'm looking at the curser at the top of the gauge and trying to get it at the 100%. That's simply IM-bloody-POSSIBLE. That's only going to throw out your rhythm. I try this. I set up my Swing Meter Sensitivity (and the mouse speed in Windows Control Panel) so that it stays basically within the swing circle and concentrate ON THE BOTTOM OF THE SWING GAUGE. I don't stare at the top of the swing gauge to stop the curser at the preferred point but I focus on the bottom of the gauge (which represents the top of the backswing). I start pulling the mouse back and aim at where the yellow triangle starts at the bottom (6 o'clock). This has the added benefit of keeping the swing path straight up and down. When the curser hits the line of the inner circle (see fig.1) it's time to start the downswing (the push forward with the mouse).  If you have your Swing Meter Sensitivity right then the yellow triangle will stop where you desire it to be. It might be a bit over or even a bit under but it will almost always stop where you would like it because you have stopped your curser at the bottom of the gauge - right on the inner rim of the circle. Then it's a simple matter of pushing your mouse to the 12 o'clock position.
 
Bk16Lzc.png
FIG.1
 
So...I'm at a stage where I'm really hitting the ball well - or at least hitting it straight and keeping it on the fairway but I'm lacking confidence to control my shots so that I can place the ball where I want it. I'm playing Min/Min A grade golf. Some days I'm in the groove and the ball comes out straight and true. My short game is not great but I'm not spraying shots and I'm robotically swinging through the ball and playing to par. Then I reach the next level. I'm a slow learner.
 
And so I come to the point of this post. It's not on the range that I finally find the moment when I 'get it'. I stand on the tee or over a shot to a green with trouble surrounding it and I start to wonder how to get the ball close to the pin now that I've got this beautiful straight shot wired in with a nice tempo and strength. I finally find the courage to start trying to shape the shot. Previously I have given it a crack but have no control over the result. The difference now is that I've got control over my swing. I'm hitting that 6 o'clock which equates to a 100-110% top of backswing and I'm pushing through with a nice straight follow through. Now that that is under control I can make slight swing path adjustments and aim for - say - 12:03 o'clock on my forward push. And blow me down I get a beautiful slight draw off the pond with the ball bouncing towards the pin. Or I draw off the right side to the centre of the fairway around a slight dog-leg left. This is a wonderful moment. It feels great. It looks great and the results are great. I'm more of a drawer at this point but I'll work on my fade. Of course the added bonus is that the over spin on the draw is giving me a consistent extra 10 yards on my drives. It also means I don't have to use the blue dot (for drawing and fading).
 
To me this is an amazing moment in gaming. I'm hooked and I'm drawn to this game. I'm experiencing the game of golf on a computer like it is played at a high level in reality. I'm not going to get that any other way.
 
TL;DR  Love Motion Swing

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#2 frank70

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 11:08 AM

Great story!!

 

One thing: I think when you want to make a draw you should try to move the mouse back slightly left and then try to reach exactly 12 o'clock again. Everything other than 12 o'clock would mean more "offset" and it will shorten your shot. 


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#3 Ted_Ball

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 11:35 AM

Ah.. OK frank. Thanks for that



#4 Crow357

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 11:41 AM

Heh, I'm still just trying to hit it straight. The only time I "shape" the shot is when I don't want to. :)
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#5 frank70

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 11:53 AM

Crow357, on 12 Mar 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

Heh, I'm still just trying to hit it straight. The only time I "shape" the shot is when I don't want to. :)

Hey, i never said that i can control my shaped shots  :) I just know how it is supposed to be done.

 

Maybe Mike can confirm what i just said about shaping the ball.



#6 Backspin000

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 12:42 PM

I  don't know if anybody else beside me experienced this but for me its all about the tempo.  One day I can play half way decent.  The next day if my tempo is too slow or fast its like its my first time playing.  For me that's the way it is in real golf also.  It is so realistic to me.  I'm loving it.


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#7 frank70

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 12:56 PM

Backspin000, on 12 Mar 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

I  don't know if anybody else beside me experienced this but for me its all about the tempo.  One day I can play half way decent.  The next day if my tempo is too slow or fast its like its my first time playing.  For me that's the way it is in real golf also.  It is so realistic to me.  I'm loving it.

Tempo is the most important thing.

 

What i really like is, that you can loose it even during a round. All of a sudden i'm pulling the ball and i don't feel it at all. Result: I try to compensate and start to push/fade it. This is the point where my confidence is getting a hit and i don't feel comfortable to play the right shots (drawing or fading the ball when flag positions require it - with the mouse swing not with the shot shaper). This has signs of a real sim. You go through all of that playing real golf too, everybody does, even the pros.

 

Perfect Golf has the foundation to create the immersion of playing the real thing. We are not quite there yet (ground physics, lack of tournament atmosphere, virtual tour, etc.). But the core, the motion swing and the ball flight physics, is great. The motion swing requires a combination of technique (moving the mouse repeatable on a desired plane) and feel (tempo). Isn't that what a golf swing is all about?



#8 Greensboronclion

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 01:08 PM

This game is just absorbing all of my gaming time and I just can't get enough of it. Love the ability to shape the ball and just seem to be learning something new each round I play. Best thing I did was going from min aids back to mod as it has made it much easier to learn and will make the move back to min easier.

#9 frank70

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 01:36 PM

Greensboronclion, on 12 Mar 2015 - 1:08 PM, said:

This game is just absorbing all of my gaming time and I just can't get enough of it. Love the ability to shape the ball and just seem to be learning something new each round I play. Best thing I did was going from min aids back to mod as it has made it much easier to learn and will make the move back to min easier.

I love Perfect Golf! If i only could play in virtual tournaments! I loved PGA 2000 to death. Competing with the pros on real life courses (even if it were just generated scores and not lifelike avatars) is so much fun for me. I'm slowly getting to the point with Perfect Golf where i'm beginning to lack motivation to play the game. Just playing the course and trying to go low is in the long run not enough motivation for me, and i'm just not an online gamer at all.


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#10 Buck

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 02:14 PM

Awesome comments from all.

 

Totally agree.

The MotionSwing is a revelation.  It reminds me of when the EA NHL games got the Skill Stick in 2009 (I think it was) - Just a game changing way to control that particular sport - Same is true here for Golf.

 

Every round is a different beast of tempo, how you're feeling, the conditions, etc - Just an awesome representation of Golf



#11 MimicPS

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 02:22 PM

 A great story Teddy, and some very useful pointers, especially on how to 'groove' a swing using that 'field of movement' tip on adjusting sensitivity to the point where you don't have to be focusing intently on the top of the swing.

 

frank70, on 12 Mar 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

One thing: I think when you want to make a draw you should try to move the mouse back slightly left and then try to reach exactly 12 o'clock again. Everything other than 12 o'clock would mean more "offset" and it will shorten your shot. 

 

That point is well made Frank. I'm pretty sure a forced in-to-out along an offset diagonal path is the best way to ensure no offset penalty... for me, however, carrying it out is far more easier said than done! I always seem to over-force it and consequently get an offset mis-hit, much like topping or shanking the ball.

 

I'm finding more success by making the final shaping in the top portion of the swing, much like opening and closing the wrist in a real stroke. Not confident enough to do it at will so much (tempo issues have set me back somewhat recently, as since the last update the mouse sensitivity for my player keeps returning to an odd 'default' of 1.20, which is .10 below my preferred spot) but your story gives me hope that I'll crack it eventually.



#12 Greensboronclion

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 03:17 PM

frank70, on 12 Mar 2015 - 1:36 PM, said:

I love Perfect Golf! If i only could play in virtual tournaments! I loved PGA 2000 to death. Competing with the pros on real life courses (even if it were just generated scores and not lifelike avatars) is so much fun for me. I'm slowly getting to the point with Perfect Golf where i'm beginning to lack motivation to play the game. Just playing the course and trying to go low is in the long run not enough motivation for me, and i'm just not an online gamer at all.



I would bet this will be in the game in the end and like you I play more offline than on tho I enjoy the online but a tour type atmosphere would really be nice. Loved PGA 2000 also.

#13 IanK

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 03:53 PM

I've given the MS a good try but I just don't 'get it' I'm afraid. The MS shouldn't be just about 'tempo', it should give me a feeling that I'm swinging the club in a natural way. For me there is no feeling that I'm swinging a golf club in an effort to propel the ball 300 yards down the fairway. There is currently no need to accelerate the mouse as you would accelerate your downswing in real life. If you were to hit a real golf ball with the same lack of acceleration present with the MS I doubt that you would manage to hit the ball 50 yards. It will be very interesting to see what happens when the controller input is 1:1 with the avatar's movement. My bet would be that the avatar's swing just won't look correct with the current 'slow back and slow forward' of the MS.
As much as I dislike the 3c method I'll have to stick with it until improvements in the MS are forthcoming or the controller swing comes along. I just hope it's not as easy to hit dead straight drives and long iron shots as the controller swing on TGC.
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#14 Buck

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 04:39 PM

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#15 Greensboronclion

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 06:17 PM

Knighters, on 12 Mar 2015 - 3:53 PM, said:

I've given the MS a good try but I just don't 'get it' I'm afraid. The MS shouldn't be just about 'tempo', it should give me a feeling that I'm swinging the club in a natural way. For me there is no feeling that I'm swinging a golf club in an effort to propel the ball 300 yards down the fairway. There is currently no need to accelerate the mouse as you would accelerate your downswing in real life. If you were to hit a real golf ball with the same lack of acceleration present with the MS I doubt that you would manage to hit the ball 50 yards. It will be very interesting to see what happens when the controller input is 1:1 with the avatar's movement. My bet would be that the avatar's swing just won't look correct with the current 'slow back and slow forward' of the MS.
As much as I dislike the 3c method I'll have to stick with it until improvements in the MS are forthcoming or the controller swing comes along. I just hope it's not as easy to hit dead straight drives and long iron shots as the controller swing on TGC.


Not trying to be smart Alec but your wrong on hitting a real golf ball. I can tell you you can take your backswing at a real slow pace and follow thru at same pace and hit the ball 150 yards plus every time. I practice sometimes on just standing on my right leg and with my left leg lifted to just keep my balance and complete the swing on one leg and hit the ball 150 yards not swinging hard at all. The golf swing is not about swinging out of your shoes but about tempo and the good players have a nice easy smooth swing and if you want proof Google a video of Ernie Els and you will see why they call him the big easy. Hitting a golf ball isn't and shouldn't be a violent motion and neither is this game.
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#16 Buck

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 06:35 PM

Yeah I just think that maybe the previous golf games have conditioned us to think that you have to wildly accelerate through the downswing.

In real life it can feel like you're wildly accelerating because of the big change between the backswing and downswing but once you initiate the downswing a nice smooth motion that is faster than the backswing seems to be correct.

That's exactly what they've accounted for with the 1:4 ratio I think.

There's definitely a difference between a downswing that's faster than the backswing and the entire concept of constant acceleration of the downswing.

I guess ultimately I don't understand why they can't allow people to set a custom ratio that they like and perhaps that would help? (Not sensitivity but the ratio itself)

#17 Acrilix

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 07:16 PM

Maybe PP need to rethink the 1:4 ratio because however accurate it is to real life it is not going to translate accurately into a mouse movement. When swinging an actual club the weight of the head acts against the acceleration by the player's hands during the down swing. A mouse, by comparison, has almost zero force acting upon it, so a 1:4 ratio is going to feel much slower than in real life because of the lack of that counter-force.


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#18 Mike Jones

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 07:34 PM

Acrilix, on 12 Mar 2015 - 7:16 PM, said:

Maybe PP need to rethink the 1:4 ratio because however accurate it is to real life it is not going to translate accurately into a mouse movement. When swinging an actual club the weight of the head acts against the acceleration by the player's hands during the down swing. A mouse, by comparison, has almost zero force acting upon it, so a 1:4 ratio is going to feel much slower than in real life because of the lack of that counter-force.

I have plugged in various ratios into the dev builds and I KNOW that many people who feel that the forward motion is too slow will be very happy when they have the ability to tweak the values. I guess when we picked the 1:4 ratio is was to simulate the pace of a pro swing as closely as possible but then again in real golf pros swing at many different speeds and rhythms.

 

Part of our ongoing dev plan is to have a pro shop attached to the range where people can go in and try different clubs and club components such as stiffer or heavier shafts, change the swing weight in their clubs, change the lots etc so they can customise their gameplay to the way they like.

 

For example a stiffer shaft will lose you some club head speed on a normal swing but you will be able to overswing more without having as much of a directional penalty. It will also enable you to customise the ideal ratio which is hard coded right now to something you can change ie: 1:5 which will give a bigger sense of acceleration for the people who like it that way.


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#19 Buck

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 07:43 PM

@mike:

 

I know this might sound crazy, but what if the power "indicator" or "dot" we'll call it had more of a momentum/floating element to its motion?

 

You could pull back and you'd have to time the start of the downswing a little bit to stop the backswing momentum on the power dot and then you'd absolutely be downswing accelerating?


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#20 Greensboronclion

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Posted 12 March 2015 - 07:45 PM

Wow this really is going to be like real golf.  Mind boggling with how much thought you guys have put into this thing and where it is going in the future.






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