68 replies to this topic

[Acrilix]

Also, this (I can't do it myself, no Mac): Has anyone tried to play the exact same shot twice in the Alpha Build of the Terrain Physics Engine with the exact same settings and no wind? Is that even possible? And if so, do the balls end up in the same spot?

 

There was no wind in the alpha build. Every shot was computer perfect. You just saw one trace line for multiple shots at the same setting.

[Kablammo11]

Thanks, Acrilix. I suspected as much. Should it really be like that???

[Acrilix]

Thanks, Acrilix. I suspected as much. Should it really be like that???

 

I agree with you... bring in realistic randomness...... but it won't please the arcade golfers who want to go around in -20 per round, and it will frustrate everyone on occasion, including me!   

[Keith]

I agree with you... bring in realistic randomness...... but it won't please the arcade golfers who want to go around in -20 per round, and it will frustrate everyone on occasion, including me!   

I was wondering about "grain" on the greens while watching the Tour Championship.  That sort of fits into the randomness factor you guys are talking about.  I don't know if it is something the development guys have considered, or even if it is doable.  Not all grass types produce grain on greens, but it definitely affects the roll of the ball.  That is  something that would possibly push the putting difficulty over the edge, however.

[Dazmaniac]

I agree with you... bring in realistic randomness...... but it won't please the arcade golfers who want to go around in -20 per round, and it will frustrate everyone on occasion, including me!   

 

Good, lol.

 

[Dazmaniac]

I was wondering about "grain" on the greens while watching the Tour Championship.  That sort of fits into the randomness factor you guys are talking about.  I don't know if it is something the development guys have considered, or even if it is doable.  Not all grass types produce grain on greens, but it definitely affects the roll of the ball.  That is  something that would possibly push the putting difficulty over the edge, however.

 

Good, lol.

 

Putting should be difficult in Perfect Golf. I play golf IRL and it is certainly not an easy thing to master, and I consider myself a decent putter (play off 5).

 

[Maineah]

excellent post-- not going to bother to quote, way too many good ideas-

I would also love an added slight randomness to the shots..  weird bounces and such, and don't forget about those damn spike marks from the foot draggers on the green!-  just that little nudge to the ball to make you say wtf was that!??

Like K11 said, these slight little nudges might be what makes you make the putt too--

I have had plenty of these both ways IRL-

 

excellent ideas guys and gals-  keep 'em coming

 

Tim

[Mike Jones]

The 'butterfly effect' of slightly random outcomes is something that we're keen to implement but not to the point where things become pure random chance. 

[Dazmaniac]

One thing I would say to anyone who is a little sceptical about the 'fuzzy physics' Kablammo11 has referred to is that the intention is not for the randomness to cause the ball to deviate off it's intended line excessively, just small amounts, just so that it allows the possibility for there to be a small difference in the outcome of shots that are hit identically.

 

How often have you hit putts in real life at the hole and one will roll straight and then the next one just drifts slightly to the right and catches the lip.

 

IMO, if this can be done correctly (and not become random chance as MJ has stated) I think it will add a level of realism to the game we haven't had before in other golf releases.

[axe360]

Question? What if say, I have designed a green and where the golfer is standing, there is a left to right fall, would this "slight randomness" ever cause the ball to go the wrong way, I am starting to wonder about that... Wouldn't look to good.. I would just hate to see my putt, leaning to the downhill side, then suddenly turn uphill?  I know were talking subtle changes, but....

[Dazmaniac]

Question? What if say, I have designed a green and where the golfer is standing, there is a left to right fall, would this "slight randomness" ever cause the ball to go the wrong way, I am starting to wonder about that... Wouldn't look to good.. I would just hate to see my putt, leaning to the downhill side, then suddenly turn uphill?  I know were talking subtle changes, but....

 

I would expect if any 'fuzzy effect' is applied in anyway, it would never be great enough to react in the way you are questioning.

 

The lie of the land (slope) would/should always take precedence and effectively let gravity do it's thing. It might mean the ball would break a touch more or less than you would expect a 'billiard table smooth' roll to behave, but I'm only talking fractions of inches and not overly excessive break.

 

We are only discussing the idea anyway. Nothing has been decided or set in stone. It would definitely be something that would need rigorous BETA testing, but IMO is something that should at least be considered. If it doesn't work then we can it. End of.

 

[axe360]

Whew, I thought we would be seeing this tomorrow...   I'm still on board with this idea...

[IanD]

On holiday in Ayr and restricted to iPhone this week, but wanted to add more. I'm not sure allowing the game the variations is what I'd like to see, some maybe, but ultimately it should reside in the designed courses.

Even as K11 suggested it taking a designer forever, that option is for me. If you create a real course then you, the designer, can decide the variations in the necessary ball physics. Maybe dumb it down in what the designer can adjust, but it's his decision.

Some courses can be designed as being professional and high quality, there roll on their fairways and greens would vastly vary to some municipal ones. The game can't decide that difference without the designer being given the chance to affect the required physics.

[IanD]

The checklist too...

If the whole combo is developed well by the guys here, they can easily allow a view of the designer adjusted course physics to ensure no silliness occurs. This helps those of us with any form of difficulty index, keep tabs on whatever is wanted.

The game should only allow variables in your golfer IMO. You want to learn the course itself then goto the driving range or putting green of those specific courses.

[Kablammo11]

One thing I would say to anyone who is a little sceptical about the 'fuzzy physics' Kablammo11 has referred to is that the intention is not for the randomness to cause the ball to deviate off it's intended line excessively, just small amounts, just so that it allows the possibility for there to be a small difference in the outcome of shots that are hit identically.

 

How often have you hit putts in real life at the hole and one will roll straight and then the next one just drifts slightly to the right and catches the lip.

 

IMO, if this can be done correctly (and not become random chance as MJ has stated) I think it will add a level of realism to the game we haven't had before in other golf releases.

 

That's it exactly, thank you. Correctly done, this would not impact game play and shot setup at all - it would never be so marked as to have to be factored in (except perhaps when allowing for a foot or two of room for error - but even this would occur instinctively, based on previous observations, not on a cognitive level). The game would play and feel the same and even if you knew that there were some tiny butterflies out there on the course, you would be hard pressed to know them when you see them. 

It's mostly a cosmetic concern, to add a bit more realism to an otherwise too perfect ball movement.

[Armand]

In real golf/life, the physics obviously aren't fuzzy.  The ground/green/grass blades/etc. are what is "fuzzy" - at least they behave fuzzily (!).  Without being able to have a 3D texture (and each blade of grass modelled), the fuzzy physics may be the only way to go about it.  I like this idea a lot!  Not sure it would be percentage points of fuzziness - perhaps tenths or hundredths of percentage points, but that would be determined once/if such a system could be implemented.

[IanD]

That's it exactly, thank you. Correctly done, this would not impact game play and shot setup at all - it would never be so marked as to have to be factored in (except perhaps when allowing for a foot or two of room for error - but even this would occur instinctively, based on previous observations, not on a cognitive level). The game would play and feel the same and even if you knew that there were some tiny butterflies out there on the course, you would be hard pressed to know them when you see them. 

It's mostly a cosmetic concern, to add a bit more realism to an otherwise too perfect ball movement.

 

So it's basically a visual thing.. ?

 

As in other golf sims, this can be the hardest thing to replicate constantly. Whilst a few images used here already show similar shots, their resulting stop vary. However, if I'm reading right, you seek the visual improvement on how the ball 'came to be'.. ?

 

Or another example ; You would effectively be happy with 2 balls actually ending up in the same position, providing they travelled different paths to get there..?

 

Anything else may surely impact gameplay..
 

[Kablammo11]

So it's basically a visual thing.. ?

 

As in other golf sims, this can be the hardest thing to replicate constantly. Whilst a few images used here already show similar shots, their resulting stop vary. However, if I'm reading right, you seek the visual improvement on how the ball 'came to be'.. ?

 

Or another example ; You would effectively be happy with 2 balls actually ending up in the same position, providing they travelled different paths to get there..?

 

Anything else may surely impact gameplay..
 

 

Hm...If 2 balls were to end up in the same postion after travelling different paths to get there, yes, I would accept it, if it happened... an isolated few times, but certainly not regularly - and as a result of fuzzy quirks that accidentally cancel themselves out. Anything else will impact gameplay, absolutely - at least the "outcome" part of gameplay and not the "seeting up and playing your shot"-part -  but to such a small and unpredictable degree that it is impossible to know in advance and that you will plan and play your shots exactly the same as if it weren't there. I will, of course, play a non-fuzzy physics game with delight as well - and just wanted to point out that there was a vital element missing from the equation so far: Uncertainty.

The choice of the word "cosmetic" may have been misleading. Cosmetic as in "affecting the appearance, but not the substance" was not meant to imply a strictly visual change. I do believe that the substance of any shot should not be a completely identical ending for two or more identical shots, but a small radius of a few inches or feet.

There is no way in heaven or hell that you can fire any golf shot IRL and pin the substance of your shot down to a perfect point in the far distance, before the ball stops. Yes, you will imagine that point while setting up your shot, as an aid to yourself, and it will guide your strategy. But if your ball ends up a foot and four inches away from that spot, after hitting a magnificently perfect shot, you will think to yourself: "Wow, what a great shot!" and not: "Aw crap, now that was totally unfair!".

I'm not at all proposing to steal players rewards for a good shot with this, or to turn a golf sim into a pinball machine. Personally, I would be willing to accept a lot of erratic bounces and wobbly rolls and stray angles in a golf sim, because that's how I remember my own IRL golf games. It all comes down to our visions and beliefs about the game in particular and life in general. And mine are that pure, mathematical perfection is intrinsically inhuman and unnatural. And that the nearest we may ever come to any kind of perfection... is through acceptance of imperfection. 

[IanD]

Appreciate your explanative reply...

 

I think I've some intrepidation regarding this, and relating to some luck issues within another game I play. I've also gone off in a another direction that I've found better defined in this thread. Naturally, I wouldn't want to see the two combined create futher complications, nor would I like to see too much use of the 'luck' factor. It's a little like playing the course for the first time during that day, and then again being the last golfer to play it at the end of the day. The conditions haven't changed... but your ball meets differences that may not be there previously, and won't be again..  how can we introduce it, without affecting gameplay and not simply making it a visual thing..?

 

Like any Golf Sim.. it assumes when you choose a course to play, you're playing it under the exact same conditions you may have chosen previously.

 

This is why perhaps, the variation should not simply remain within the PerfectGolf program, but also/or, be a variable within the CourseForge too.

[Dazmaniac]

Appreciate your explanative reply...

 

I think I've some intrepidation regarding this, and relating to some luck issues within another game I play. I've also gone off in a another direction that I've found better defined in this thread. Naturally, I wouldn't want to see the two combined create futher complications, nor would I like to see too much use of the 'luck' factor. It's a little like playing the course for the first time during that day, and then again being the last golfer to play it at the end of the day. The conditions haven't changed... but your ball meets differences that may not be there previously, and won't be again..  how can we introduce it, without affecting gameplay and not simply making it a visual thing..?

 

Like any Golf Sim.. it assumes when you choose a course to play, you're playing it under the exact same conditions you may have chosen previously.

 

This is why perhaps, the variation should not simply remain within the PerfectGolf program, but also/or, be a variable within the CourseForge too.

 

I would disagree.

 

IRL during the day, there are subtle changes to the course. I played in our monthly medal yesterday and teed off at 7.20. The course had a light covering of dew, and the grrens had been recently top-dressed and brushed. When we putted the ball picked a ring of the top dress sand, due to the dampness and the greens were a little on the softer and slower side.

 

Later in the day, my dad played the 'same course' but said to me that by the mid point of the round the balls were no longer picking up the top dress sand when putting, like they were when I played, as the had dried out due to the nice weather and had a good number of players walking on the greens between the both of us playing.

 

The 'fuzzy physics' that are being suggested is just to replicate the odd bounces and rolls that can occur in real life golf in to a computer game, instead of us all playing billiard table smooth fairways and greens that give a perfect bounce and roll every time.