24 replies to this topic

[mebby]

The age-old topic of debate.  So before you roll your eyes just hear me out.

 

First off - I have always been very complimentary of PP's accomplishment of creating a game that has two method's of swing that are both equally difficult.  I sometimes feel alone in my view on this as many seem bent on constantly defending their swing of choice as being superior and more difficult.  With the rise of more tournament play this debate seems to be building to a dull crescendo.  

 

Second - I'll state right up front that my preferred method of play is MS.  Why?  Because it's multi-dimensional and has a greater sense of connectivity to the game of golf.  FOR MY PERSONAL LIKING.  This does not mean that someone of opposing views is WRONG... it's just my personal view.  3C bores me to tears.  It has one dimension - accuracy.  I'm just not engaged by it.  For those that love 3C that's fantastic!  I'm happy that you have a way to enjoy the game.  Seriously.

 

Now... what I'm growing BEYOND tired with are those that can't respect the fact that the game was developed with multiple ways to swing the club and are constantly posting about how one method is easier than the other.  And I'll be blunt.  I'm absolutely tired of 3C players (not all of you) saying that the top of the leaderboards are dominated by MS players so therefore... MS is easier.

 

So my challenge is this.  Switch methods of play.  For 15-20 rounds.  Make a genuine attempt to master the other method of play.  Compare your scores using both methods of play on the same difficulty level.

 

I've personally done this and I can personally vouch for the fact that both swing methods are equally difficult in total.  Some portions of each swing method are easier than the other but in my experience things evened out overall.  Thus why I can stand behind my first statement above.

 

And lastly... if you find yourself constantly moaning about MS players dominating the tops of the leaderboards then you obviously desire to be there yourself.  And if you desire to be there so much that you'd publicly whine about a MS player beating you week in and week out because MS is SO much easier than 3C then why wouldn't you just switch to MS and dominate the leaderboard?  I'll never understand the logic of this.  If you're so sure of yourself and so certain in your stance that MS is definitively easier then... use MS and prove your point.

 

I once thought that 3C was SO easy and inferior to MS.  But instead of making baseless claims on the forums I sought out to prove my own theory.  I was wrong.  So my challenge to you is to do the same.  I hope that you take me up on this.  If you do (and you are honest with your efforts), I'm confident that you'll come out of the experiment with a new appreciation for what PP has developed as well as a more open mind about spirited and fair competition.

[Mike Jones]

Suggesting that people change their mode of player to try and compete won't be a very popular suggestion. There have been lots of threads about the relative difficulty of the different swing types and the stats are well known to us. 

 

I'm not sure what kind of response you're hoping to get with this thread but we will be watching carefully and if it just devolves into a 'your way is easier than my way thread' we will lock it.

[mebby]

Suggesting that people change their mode of player to try and compete won't be a very popular suggestion. There have been lots of threads about the relative difficulty of the different swing types and the stats are well known to us. 
 
I'm not sure what kind of response you're hoping to get with this thread but we will be watching carefully and if it just devolves into a 'your way is easier than my way thread' we will lock it.

Well your response was roughly as expected. Not sure exactly why you seem to have it out for me Mike.

If you'll reread my post you'll perhaps see that I challenged people to switch methods and compare their scores against their own scores using their preferred method in an attempt to show that both swing types are equally difficult. I did not suggest that they switch swing types in order to be competitive. In fact, that would be contrary to the entire point of my post.

[Mike Jones]

I don't care for this subject. We have had several threads already about this and they all end badly. Nothing personal.

[Sinewiz]

For me personally I've played 3 click for some 30 years or so and virtually zero MS.  So it's safe to assume that after 15 or 20 rounds of MS I'm going to be scoring lower clicking. Does that suggest clicking is easier? Ahhh, not really. If I choose to start sliding I'll need 30 years or so in order to form somewhat of a fair comparison.

[mebby]

For me personally I've played 3 click for some 30 years or so and virtually zero MS.  So it's safe to assume that after 15 or 20 rounds of MS I'm going to be scoring lower clicking. Does that suggest clicking is easier? Ahhh, not really. If I choose to start sliding I'll need 30 years or so in order to form somewhat of a fair comparison.

Fair point. I've not really spent a great deal of time with either method. Most of my gaming golf experience has been with controller based swings. So, for me the test was simpler than it would be for someone like yourself that has years of experience with 3C.

[mebby]

I don't care for this subject. We have had several threads already about this and they all end badly. Nothing personal.

Fair enough. Just don't make this into something it isn't. It's not a witch hunt. It's an experiment based on my own personal experience and I'm trying to share it with the forum to attempt to open some eyes to different view points... Not one view point or another.

Ever read the book Green Eggs and Ham? Crazy to knock something until you've tried right?

[sirputterman]

Mike do every one a favor and kill this now. Lol this is like asking what religion is best and not expect for things to go badly. This debate has been hashed and rehashed so many times and the end result is the same, a flame war where innuendo's on both sides of cheating etc. After all the dust and debris clears out the two sides are just as far apart as ever if not even further apart. 

In fact this subject is so volatile  I would make it taboo to even bring it up. Trust me no good will ever come from any discussions on it and as I said probably make things worse.

Oh I know it always starts off with good intentions (well all right not always) and it just takes one remarks and things spiral out of control so fast that it is good that neither sides have access to the big red button or the world would be vaporized a 1000 times over by now.

 

This subject is just plain  bad ju ju.         

[mebby]

Mike do every one a favor and kill this now. Lol this is like asking what religion is best and not expect for things to go badly. This debate has been hashed and rehashed so many times and the end result is the same, a flame war where innuendo's on both sides of cheating etc. After all the dust and debris clears out the two sides are just as far apart as ever if not even further apart. 
In fact this subject is so volatile  I would make it taboo to even bring it up. Trust me no good will ever come from any discussions on it and as I said probably make things worse.
Oh I know it always starts off with good intentions (well all right not always) and it just takes one remarks and things spiral out of control so fast that it is good that neither sides have access to the big red button or the world would be vaporized a 1000 times over by now.
 
This subject is just plain  bad ju ju.

Maybe you're right. Guess I was wrong to assume that most people here are mature enough to discuss this topic openly.

My point isn't to say which swing type is best. It's just to challenge folks to try both types before passing judgement. That's it. I think it's really stupid to make negative posts about a swing type if you've never tried (really tried) it. And that's all I'm saying.

I'd rather have a discussion about it than to read countless posts from people saying that so and so only wins because they use this method or that method.

So yes, let's keep it taboo and watch endless baseless claims being made from here till eternity. That's much better. Much healthier for the forums.

[Crusher]

I don't care for this subject. We have had several threads already about this and they all end badly. Nothing personal.

 

Nor do I. Especially when you have asked the OP several times to stop posting unproductive yet controversial topics.

 

As sirputterman has strongly suggested: This topic should be either deleted or at the very least, locked.

[sirputterman]

Mebby your intentions may be pure but even in your opening post I seen a few comments that some (not saying me ) would take arms up against it. "    I'll state right up front that my preferred method of play is MS.  Why?  Because it's multi-dimensional and has a greater sense of connectivity to the game of golf.  FOR MY PERSONAL LIKING.  This does not mean that someone of opposing views is WRONG... it's just my personal view.  3C bores me to tears.  It has one dimension - accuracy.  I'm just not engaged by it.  For those that love 3C that's fantastic!  I'm happy that you have a way to enjoy the game.  Seriously."

BOOM !!! and the rockets red glare and bombs bursting in air or as Marvin the Martian would say "There should have been an earth shattering Kaboom" ( love that little guy )

My point is there is just no way in he double hockey sticks that this can be approached without someone taking offense. Sorry bud I'm a realist and I have seen this subject go sour so fast that it would make your head spin. 

It is a hornet's nest best not stirred. 

 

[sirputterman]

If you want my opinion on the subject here it is. Both methods use a mouse and key board so neither are exactly "like the real deal" I would say those that are blessed with the finances to use a simulator are actually the closest to "the real deal" the rest is just semantics. 

[mebby]

If you want my opinion on the subject here it is. Both methods use a mouse and key board so neither are exactly "like the real deal" I would say those that are blessed with the finances to use a simulator are actually the closest to "the real deal" the rest is just semantics.

Very true. Nothing replaces the real thing.

I hope to try out a simulator version very soon.

[Sliceapottomus]

I've used both, prefer to 3 click because of simplicity and feed back with meter,  Once I got the hang of ms I find it much easier to get into the fairway than 3 click due to the severe tour pro penalty. Also find putting much easier  on ms for whatever reason, again prob the mishit penalty which i hear might have changed. I have also stated that that swing type did not feel reel to me. I swing fast and too hard in real life as well, and I pay the price for it as well...don't know if I'd go as far to say one type is more emersive than the other but that is your opinion, and I can respect that. and that is exactly the problem RESPECT....As a community you should be able to respect a players right to use whatever swing method they choose. If it bothers you that much then stop whinning about it and create a group that adheres to you own views....as far as which is easier than the other as a whole.. well they are both easy compared to swinging a real club on a real course. Maybe the issue is that guys that want a true sim think they are getting that with motion swing but in my opinion thats just not happening moving a mouse 3 inches 1 way and then back again or clicking 3 times. as you stated the  simulators are the way to go for that.... What we have to remember this is a computer game. plain and simple , Its a game people ,enjoy it as you like to ....I know this is early acces and I tend to speak up when I feel the game is screwed up or i notice something that may cause an unfair advantage. but going on and on about this and that, or whos right or wrong does not help the games development. love the religion metaphor, by the way ...Agree to disagree and be mature enough to move on. can't we all just get along

[mebby]

I've used both, prefer to 3 click because of simplicity and feed back with meter, Once I got the hang of ms I find it much easier to get into the fairway than 3 click due to the severe tour pro penalty. Also find putting much easier on ms for whatever reason, again prob the mishit penalty which i hear might have changed. I have also stated that that swing type did not feel reel to me. I swing fast and too hard in real life as well, and I pay the price for it as well...don't know if I'd go as far to say one type is more emersive than the other but that is your opinion, and I can respect that. and that is exactly the problem RESPECT....As a community you should be able to respect a players right to use whatever swing method they choose. If it bothers you that much then stop whinning about it and create a group that adheres to you own views....as far as which is easier than the other as a whole.. well they are both easy compared to swinging a real club on a real course. Maybe the issue is that guys that want a true sim think they are getting that with motion swing but in my opinion thats just not happening moving a mouse 3 inches 1 way and then back again or clicking 3 times. as you stated the simulators are the way to go for that.... What we have to remember this is a computer game. plain and simple , Its a game people ,enjoy it as you like to ....I know this is early acces and I tend to speak up when I feel the game is screwed up or i notice something that may cause an unfair advantage. but going on and on about this and that, or whos right or wrong does not help the games development. love the religion metaphor, by the way ...Agree to disagree and be mature enough to move on. can't we all just get along

I think you've misinterpreted my original post! I'm certainly not whining about 3C! I've even gone so far to say that it's just as difficult as MS and I've said multiple times before that I'll play anyone using any swing type because I do not feel that one gives someone a fair advantage over another!

That's the very point of the thread... Not to start a war! Sheesh!

[granite00]

Very tedious.  Please lock it up.

[IanK]

For goodness sake do we have to be subjected to this endless bickering? It's doing nothing to help the devs improve the game and get it ready for release. This forum used to be an enjoyable place to visit and debate matters but I'm reluctant to post anything lately.

[frank70]

As long as we play in the same fields in online tourneys, i think this discussion has it's place

 

But it would be better if we leave emotions or feelings out of the equation as much as possible .... we just look at stats (as Mike stated). If we do that, some answers are quite obvious.

 

Long game:

 

Mouse swingers generally hit more fairways and greens. Being a mouse swinger myself, i can say, that it isn't a walk in the park on tour pro to do this. I would say that my driving stats should be a little bit worse, compared to real PGA Tour pros. I'm hitting around 80 %. That's a bit much, but we played a lot of courses so far with rather generous fairways.

 

GIR i hover mostly between 65 and 70 % - that's well inline with the pros. 3-clickers often cannot match these numbers.

 

Conclusion: The best mouse swingers hit 5 - 10% more fairways than the best clickers (makes only sense to compare the best players of the different swing mechanics). And they hit 5 % more GIR - although we had 3-clickers leading in this statistic as well. There isn't that much of a difference, but you can argue that the long game is a little bit tougher 3-clicking. In the big picture (comparings the stats to real pros) the 3-clicking stats are more in line than the mouse swing stats. So you maybe toughen up the penalty for mouse swingers (only a tad and especially for the driver). I think, the GIR stats are right on the money.

 

Short game:

 

There is no significant difference between the two swing mechanic to be found here. Clickers and swingers are equally good. The one thing important to read out of the stats is, that scrambling and especially sand play is way, way to easy in the game. The averages of the top players are 15% better at scrambling and over 20 % better at sand saves than the best Tour pros can manage. So, this part of the game has to toughen up for both swing mechanics to get realistic scoring.

 

Putting: No difference as well. The best putters are putting 0.25 putts/GIR better than Jordan Spieth .....  this is a lot! Averages of 24-25 putts per round are quite common. 4-5 strokes better as they should be.

 

Comparing the complexity/difficulty of the two swing mechanics:

 

Physically it is easier to click. You don't have to move your hand to execute the shot. When mouse swinging a lot can go wrong because you can move your hand in the wrong angle, on the wrong path and too slow or too fast. So the potential of massive error is higher.

 

Swing meter: The swing meter in Perfect Golf is rather slow 3-clicking (compared to former Golf games). So the danger of clicking way to early or way too late is rather small. The rather slow speed of the meter doesn't force rhythm to be involved - it's more a question of hand/eye coordination. You don't have to "feel" when the right moment to click for the snap is (like it is in Links on the highest difficulty level). Your eye can see it, send the "message" to your finger, and then click. That is the reason, why the penalty for missing the snap slightly in some sort has to be harsh on tour pro - because it is really uncommon to completely mistime the snap.

 

This all only is an issue on Tour pro. The last tournament on Pro - Richiebro won with a score of -44. I had no business shooting that low. So you could argue that mouse swingers are at disadvantage on anythin under tour pro.

 

I would like the devs to tinker with the penalty for mistimings/missed snaps in the coming updates. Penalize the mouse swingers a tad more on drivers for a missed timing ....  see how the stats change. Speed up the swing meter for three clickers, but reduce the penalty for the snap ... see how the stats change. But first of all: Make the scrambling and the putting harder. But not by making the swing mechanic more difficult for these shots (chipping straight or putting relatively straight isn't that difficult in real life), but by changing the physics for these shots. All of the shots around the green have way too much bite after impact with the ground. Don't bring the stats in line with the wrong tools. 

[MimicPS]

I sometimes feel the difference in how the scoring looks in Tour Pro between the two swing types is more to do with attitude than difficulty of any respective swing over another.

 

For me, the 3-click style usually means a more "grip it and rip it" attitude to play with the game usually being attempted to play in straight lines if your snap is on. The MotionSwing game, either through design or accident, is not so linear in that you may know the 'shape' of your stock swing and play accordingly - sometimes to shoot the lights out but more often than not to adapt that shape to the challenge of your landing spot.

 

I think that both styles can score low, but with an average of 72 strokes needing to be perfect at click, the more adaptable and less precise method of playing to your strengths and abilities that MotionSwing encourages gives a better chance of scoring.

[Stephen Sullivan]

I have always been a champion of mouse swing, but unfortunately I am unable to get the PG version to work for me, despite a lot of experimentation.  Maybe it will change when we don't have to use the stock gauge, but I am not hopeful as I still think too much is placed on getting close to the "magical ratio" of 0.25. I have already lost my powerstroke swing in Links twice through altering my mouse setings, and I think there should be more settings available, as we can't all just go out and buy a new mouse.