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3C/MS Challenge


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#21 Crow357

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 11:54 AM

I have always been a champion of mouse swing, but unfortunately I am unable to get the PG version to work for me, despite a lot of experimentation.  Maybe it will change when we don't have to use the stock gauge, but I am not hopeful as I still think too much is placed on getting close to the "magical ratio" of 0.25. I have already lost my powerstroke swing in Links twice through altering my mouse setings, and I think there should be more settings available, as we can't all just go out and buy a new mouse.

I have a crappy unalterable Logitech mouse, and I can MS just fine.  You don't need a new mouse.


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#22 mebby

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 02:30 PM

As long as we play in the same fields in online tourneys, i think this discussion has it's place

 

But it would be better if we leave emotions or feelings out of the equation as much as possible .... we just look at stats (as Mike stated). If we do that, some answers are quite obvious.

 

Long game:

 

Mouse swingers generally hit more fairways and greens. Being a mouse swinger myself, i can say, that it isn't a walk in the park on tour pro to do this. I would say that my driving stats should be a little bit worse, compared to real PGA Tour pros. I'm hitting around 80 %. That's a bit much, but we played a lot of courses so far with rather generous fairways.

 

GIR i hover mostly between 65 and 70 % - that's well inline with the pros. 3-clickers often cannot match these numbers.

 

Conclusion: The best mouse swingers hit 5 - 10% more fairways than the best clickers (makes only sense to compare the best players of the different swing mechanics). And they hit 5 % more GIR - although we had 3-clickers leading in this statistic as well. There isn't that much of a difference, but you can argue that the long game is a little bit tougher 3-clicking. In the big picture (comparings the stats to real pros) the 3-clicking stats are more in line than the mouse swing stats. So you maybe toughen up the penalty for mouse swingers (only a tad and especially for the driver). I think, the GIR stats are right on the money.

 

Short game:

 

There is no significant difference between the two swing mechanic to be found here. Clickers and swingers are equally good. The one thing important to read out of the stats is, that scrambling and especially sand play is way, way to easy in the game. The averages of the top players are 15% better at scrambling and over 20 % better at sand saves than the best Tour pros can manage. So, this part of the game has to toughen up for both swing mechanics to get realistic scoring.

 

Putting: No difference as well. The best putters are putting 0.25 putts/GIR better than Jordan Spieth .....  this is a lot! Averages of 24-25 putts per round are quite common. 4-5 strokes better as they should be.

 

Comparing the complexity/difficulty of the two swing mechanics:

 

Physically it is easier to click. You don't have to move your hand to execute the shot. When mouse swinging a lot can go wrong because you can move your hand in the wrong angle, on the wrong path and too slow or too fast. So the potential of massive error is higher.

 

Swing meter: The swing meter in Perfect Golf is rather slow 3-clicking (compared to former Golf games). So the danger of clicking way to early or way too late is rather small. The rather slow speed of the meter doesn't force rhythm to be involved - it's more a question of hand/eye coordination. You don't have to "feel" when the right moment to click for the snap is (like it is in Links on the highest difficulty level). Your eye can see it, send the "message" to your finger, and then click. That is the reason, why the penalty for missing the snap slightly in some sort has to be harsh on tour pro - because it is really uncommon to completely mistime the snap.

 

This all only is an issue on Tour pro. The last tournament on Pro - Richiebro won with a score of -44. I had no business shooting that low. So you could argue that mouse swingers are at disadvantage on anythin under tour pro.

 

I would like the devs to tinker with the penalty for mistimings/missed snaps in the coming updates. Penalize the mouse swingers a tad more on drivers for a missed timing ....  see how the stats change. Speed up the swing meter for three clickers, but reduce the penalty for the snap ... see how the stats change. But first of all: Make the scrambling and the putting harder. But not by making the swing mechanic more difficult for these shots (chipping straight or putting relatively straight isn't that difficult in real life), but by changing the physics for these shots. All of the shots around the green have way too much bite after impact with the ground. Don't bring the stats in line with the wrong tools. 

Frank - all really good points.  But I really wasn't trying to get a 3C vs MS discussion going.  What I was trying to do is to get people that feel strongly about one method being easier than the other to try the other method in earnest and THEN form an opinion.

 

Yes, there are certain aspects of each swing that are different than the other - some easier some more difficult.  And some of this may be down to personal playing style I suppose.  But what I found in my own personal research is that I was shooting VERY similar scores using either method on the same difficulty levels.  It took time to prove it out because I needed to first gain some sort of proficiency level with 3C.  But once I did, I found that my scores were very similar on TP using 3C versus MS.  And this is coming from a guy that originally thought that 3C was laughably easy.

 

I do agree with many of your points though - I think it is easier to keep the ball in the fairway using MS on Tour Pro.  But the short game and putting for me were much easier with 3C on TP vs MS.  So in the end it seemed to even out for me.  I don't expect that everyone will have the same results as I did but the point of this post was for people to try it for themselves and see what happens.


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#23 ☠InDaSkies☠

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 04:19 PM

mebby

I tried the ms verses 3 click challenge. My findings are this: I was all over the place lol. I think it would take some time to get my rhythm down never playing ms before. But the good thing is that we have all these options to play what suits us. I applaud PP for that. I have never seen that in any other golf game. It has to be a huge challenge to get both swing types on an equal playing field. Now please don't fire a bunch of bullets at me for saying this, and it is only my opinion. I think the amateur snap penalty would be more in line with the motion swingers off the tee box only for pro and tour pro.


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#24 mebby

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 04:28 PM

mebby

I tried the ms verses 3 click challenge. My findings are this: I was all over the place lol. I think it would take some time to get my rhythm down never playing ms before. But the good thing is that we have all these options to play what suits us. I applaud PP for that. I have never seen that in any other golf game. It has to be a huge challenge to get both swing types on an equal playing field. Now please don't fire a bunch of bullets at me for saying this, and it is only my opinion. I think the amateur snap penalty would be more in line with the motion swingers off the tee box only for pro and tour pro.

Awesome!  Thanks for trying it!

 

I agree that it takes more than a handful of rounds to really try this out.  You really need time to try (in earnest) to learn the other swing methodology. 

 

And I completely agree with your point about PP's ability to make a game that has two different swing methods that allow the community to play on equal footing.  That's the whole point of this post.  I do realize now that many will form emotional opinions before truly digesting the true intent of this thread and that's unfortunate.  This was never meant to be a 3C vs MS debate - it was meant to truly highlight the beauty of a game that allows for options while keeping people on a level playing field.  It's just that most people cannot seem to open up their minds to something other than what they've known and grown accustomed to for so long.  But once you do - you see what a gem we really have here.


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#25 Acrilix

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 05:19 PM

Time will eventually tell the tale if the swings are equal.

The devs will adjust them if they feel they need to.... or they won't.

People will then play together if they are happy with it... or they won't.  ;)


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