119 replies to this topic

[tlvx]

Mike Jones, on 25 Feb 2016 - 04:00 AM, said:

Launch conditions.....

 

The pros spend their lives working on launch conditions and the equipment and techniques that will optimise those launch conditions. When we create a set of unoptimised launch conditions in the game so that people can have fun figuring out what they need to change to get the launch conditions they like so they can play the game in a way that suits them, you consider the physics 'broken'.

 

How are they broken, you surely can't deny that shots hit with the same CHS at different launch conditions IRL do not have completely different ball flight characteristics? 

 

 

No, you cannot convince me - nor a calculator - that a well struck... no, a pulverized 3-Wood, under any circumstances, would travel significantly less distance, when struck at the exact same spot, on the center of the club-face; as a shot struck with considerably less swing speed... unless there were some significant unaccounted for variables.

 

Why are you even trying to posit such a patently false physical argument?

[Mike Jones]

I'll leave you with one final example before I leave this thread for good and let you go at it - 

 

One of my favorite holes in the game is the 8th hole at Florida Glades. It's a tough, long par 3 into the prevailing wind which quite often falls between my choice of clubs, a 2 hybrid and a 3 wood for me. I have several choices to get the ball on the green and close to the flag. If I force the hybrid it goes too high and spins up into the wind and stops too quickly short of the flag. If I try and hit an easy 3 wood, it's harder to hit straight than the hybrid so that's a risk and also distance control and the roll out is less predictable than I would like. 

 

My solution, a 2 hybrid lofted down about halfway, and a shot that although overswung slightly is not hit hard enough to generate too much spin which would make the ball balloon. The result - a shot with a flat trajectory which will pitch slightly shorter onto the front of the green but release out towards the back of the green where the flag sits.

 

I can't tell you how many times IRL I have had to make the same kind of choices. In PG we're trying to give you a true feeling of the shots and choices that the real pros have to deal with. tlvx doesn't like that. He considers it unrealistic. He would have us strip the game of it's nuances and when we resist he says the physics are broken, ignoring or discounting any explanations we might have.  

 

Have a good night I'm off to bed 

[AwYea]

Alright, tlvx definitely has a point. The game has it listed at power but i swore MJ told me personally in a thread of mine that the power was actually ball speed, but ball speed is shown separately in the after shot info.

 

Anyhow, i just hit a 3W at the range at 122 power and it went 236. Hit another at 100 power and it went 260. Both center of the ball. Hitting low or high made no difference.

 

I have a hard time figuring that out unless i'm totally missing something. I can't believe i didn't notice this till now.

 

 

[tlvx]

Mike Jones, on 25 Feb 2016 - 04:18 AM, said:

I'll leave you with one final example before I leave this thread for good and let you go at it - 

 

One of my favorite holes in the game is the 8th hole at Florida Glades. It's a tough, long par 3 into the prevailing wind which quite often falls between my choice of clubs, a 2 hybrid and a 3 wood for me. I have several choices to get the ball on the green and close to the flag. If I force the hybrid it goes too high and spins up into the wind and stops too quickly short of the flag. If I try and hit an easy 3 wood, it's harder to hit straight than the hybrid so that's a risk and also distance control and the roll out is less predictable than I would like. 

 

My solution, a 2 hybrid lofted down about halfway, and a shot that although overswung slightly is not hit hard enough to generate too much spin which would make the ball balloon. The result - a shot with a flat trajectory which will pitch slightly shorter onto the front of the green but release out towards the back of the green where the flag sits.

 

I can't tell you how many times IRL I have had to make the same kind of choices. In PG we're trying to give you a true feeling of the shots and choices that the real pros have to deal with. tlvx doesn't like that. He considers it unrealistic. He would have us strip the game of it's nuances and when we resist he says the physics are broken, ignoring or discounting any explanations we might have.  

 

Have a good night I'm off to bed 

 

Don't try to put words in other people's mouths.

 

No, you don't like that I point out where your contrived overswing/over-spin overpowers the correct launch trajectory of a shot, to the point where the club can be snapped right in half at 122%.

 

I couldn't careless whether the game is Arcade, or a Simulation. I can score at will with any setup.

 

But, let's try to work towards some more realistic golf physics, instead of trying to muddy up the discussion with a nonsensical assertion of "feel" - in a game where anyone that has mastered it can reproduce these exact same flaws over and over again.

 

No, I'm trying to get the game to make sense when hitting the ball harder.

[AwYea]

I understand we don't have equipment at the moment that will possibly have different lofts for the 3W that could cause this, but were playing with standard stock clubs right now. 

 

I'm playing on PC. I don't know if it works this way playing on an actual simulator or not, maybe it doesn't and that's why?

[Ricky Proffer]

AwYea, on 25 Feb 2016 - 04:20 AM, said:

Alright, tlvx definitely has a point. The game has it listed at power but i swore MJ told me personally in a thread of mine that the power was actually ball speed, but ball speed is shown separately in the after shot info.

 

Anyhow, i just hit a 3W at the range at 122 power and it went 236. Hit another at 100 power and it went 260. Both center of the ball. Hitting low or high made no difference.

 

I have a hard time figuring that out unless i'm totally missing something. I can't believe i didn't notice this till now.

Was this MS or 3 click?  If MS and you took a bit longer than the 3 second limit it takes distance off now.  The "flub" shot when going past the 3 second limit seems to be gone.  If 3 click than ignore this because I have no idea. 

[Mike Jones]

tlvx, on 25 Feb 2016 - 04:06 AM, said:

No, you cannot convince me - nor a calculator - that a well struck... no, a pulverized 3-Wood, under any circumstances, would travel significantly less distance, when struck at the exact same spot, on the center of the club-face; as a shot struck with considerably less swing speed... unless there were some significant unaccounted for variables.

 

Why are you even trying to posit such a patently false physical argument?

 

Did you just call me a liar? 

[AwYea]

Ricky Proffer, on 25 Feb 2016 - 04:38 AM, said:

Was this MS or 3 click?  If MS and you took a bit longer than the 3 second limit it takes distance off now.  The "flub" shot when going past the 3 second limit seems to be gone.  If 3 click than ignore this because I have no idea. 

RTS-M Amateur, perfect contact. I don't think i broke the 3 sec rule. As a matter of fact when hitting the ball hard you have to have a considerable pause at the top and i actually may have. The after shot results didn't show any flub shot.

[Mike Jones]

I guess I'm wasting my time...

[tlvx]

Mike Jones, on 25 Feb 2016 - 04:39 AM, said:

Did you just call me a liar? 

 

Can we dispense with the straw-man arguments already.

 

Let's just work towards a fix.

 

All of the equipment needs looking at in this respect.

 

Striking the ball harder is causing excess over-spin to work against distance improvements, regardless of the trajectory... with all of the clubs... except Driver.

[AwYea]

Mike Jones, on 25 Feb 2016 - 04:42 AM, said:

I guess I'm wasting my time...

 

No, i will go back and re-read. I appreciate your interaction with us.

[Mike Jones]

goodbye tlvx...I was warned against lifting his ban but he always oversteps the mark and is incapable of having a reasoned discussion.

[AwYea]

I understand hitting the ball harder causes a balloon effect that could cause this, but if we choose to hit the ball lower with the shot shaper it should flatten it out. Right now, changing loft with the shot shaper has zero effect.

 

Maybe this is something to take into consideration in the future?

[Mike Jones]

https://flightscope....tory-optimizer/

 

See what happens when you increase the ball speed but ramp up the spin like we do in the overswing area.

 

Edit - leave the height of the shot blank as that is not a launch characteristic.

[AwYea]

Mike Jones, on 25 Feb 2016 - 04:52 AM, said:

https://flightscope....tory-optimizer/

 

See what happens when you increase the ball speed but ramp up the spin like we do in the overswing area.

 

Edit - leave the height of the shot blank as that is not a launch characteristic.

 

Cool program that backs what you're saying. Less spin definitely produces a lower shot with more rollout that goes farther with same launch speed.

Very intresting...Maybe you could custom fit me some clubs.   Yea, i just used Vertical.

 

Edit: I went back and tried really ramped up the over swing like the game, again you're right.

[AwYea]

Good night, this has definitely been entertaining and educational.

[jt83]

Mike Jones, on 25 Feb 2016 - 04:52 AM, said:

https://flightscope....tory-optimizer/

 

See what happens when you increase the ball speed but ramp up the spin like we do in the overswing area.

 

Edit - leave the height of the shot blank as that is not a launch characteristic.

 

Mike does this gadget take into account what club you're hitting?  I'm using PGA driver averages but the shot's only going about 200 yards.

 

Edit - Sorry, launch speed refers to ball speed, not club-head speed apparently.

[Mike Jones]

jt83, on 25 Feb 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

Mike does this gadget take into account what club you're hitting?  I'm using PGA driver averages but the shot's only going about 200 yards.

 

Sounds like you're plugging the data numbers in via kph rather than mph?  I was trying to get a better link to the trackman one but they don't seem to have it online and it's just part of their fitting software. What it probably does not take into account is what ball you're hitting as different balls have difference spin decay characteristics. I think on the trackman one you plug in the type of ball you are using but in practice theoretical numbers are usually slightly higher than real world values as you might expect. 

 

When I get on a trackman in the next few days I'll see what info I can glean from their own launch optimiser.

[AwYea]

Just to be clear...I had to keep launch speeds the same and only adjust spin to get the game results. If i increase launch speed i got opposite results. I guess i did it right. I'm too tired to tell. Maybe tomorrow i'll try plugging actual game #'s and make sure.

[frank70]

The only point i see a little bit problematic as well is that there is no element of "give it a little extra" when in between clubs. An element that is certainly available in real life.

 

When i need 5-8 yards more in real life i can get that with swinging a little harder. Perfect example is the huge gap between the 64 and the 60 in the game (74 and 93 yards). When i have a distance of 85 yards there is simply no way to get there with the 64. If i hit it with the lowest possible trajectory (100% power) it doesn't go longer because the spin effect is bigger as when hitting it normal or lofted up. If i go into overswing the ball zips back a lot (it goes a bit longer but i think but not enough to even out the bigger "zip-factor").

 

I think that in a range between 100% and 110% there should be longer ballflight as well (because of the higher clubheadspeed) - this is combined with a higher risk of mishitting, which is good.

 

But maybe the different items in the pro shop will care take of that.