50 replies to this topic

[axe360]

Taking it a step further, I imagined the game engine could do the calculations, and not allow you to select pins that were unsuitable for the conditions you had selected (grey them out, maybe), and would only select from the playable ones when selecting the random pins. This would allow designers to add pins that would still give players on slower settings the challenge they require, but it would avoid the unplayable pin problem on the fast settings too.

That is exactly the problem we come up against at TW's, in order to make a tough pin, playable on the fastest settings, it makes that Tough pin super easy on a slower setting.

In order to make a tough pin playable on a slower settings, it renders the tough pin on a fast setting, unplayable..

I'm with ya now.

 

p.s. we also have to think about levels of play, so if they use a 3 clik meter, there HAS to be easy levels and harder levels of that meter... Something for all..

I personally have always used TS but that is yet another can of worms I doh't want to go into right now..

[Joe Habiger]

I think Perfect Parallel should just go ahead with what they planned and everything can be adjusted in alpha or beta testing. Andrew and Mike are no slouches when it comes to golf games. They are not the programmers but I think they have already talked with them on what they would like to see. I have no idea who Eric is but he obviously knows what he is doing. As a designer and I don't care if you are making a US Open course you HAVE to be testing every pin you place in all conditions before you release a course to make sure there playable but at the same time you also have to know how to play the hole and have the right speed when playing it. You just can't expect to go out there and play a hard pin on dry conditions and hit it 8 feet by, you have to cosy it up there with the right speed. Play a hard pin on dry conditions and hit it to hard and it's your own *** fault it you run it off the green..lol

Your going to run across newbies who might not know what there doing and place bad pins and that is alright because they have to start somewhere's like we all have, That is where all us seasoned designers with many years of designing help out.

 

Taking it a step further, I imagined the game engine could do the calculations, and not allow you to select pins that were unsuitable for the conditions you had selected (grey them out, maybe), and would only select from the playable ones when selecting the random pins. This would allow designers to add pins that would still give players on slower settings the challenge they require, but it would avoid the unplayable pin problem on the fast settings too.

 

You don't see Augusta National moving pins because it rained out (slower greens). If this game turns out to be more of a tournament setting game (not sure what there plan is) they should use Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday pins and not just easy, medium and hard settings as that is as old as computer golf itself. If it happened to have rained out for a Friday round you don't move a pin just so it poses you a challenge (not smart thinking).. 

Lets spice it up, lets break the mold and be the best we've ever seen and played!!!!!

[Davefevs]

@Joe - Your going to run across newbies who might not know what there doing and place bad pins and that is alright because they have to start somewhere's like we all have, That is where all us seasoned designers with many years of designing help out.

....and hopefully CF will allow us Noob designers to go back into our course and revise pins following user feedback, and release v2, v3 etc easily?

I expect my vision of my local to go through several iterations.....it will be a learning curve that is hopefully enjoyable!

[highfade]

I would like to see the course designer have a set of suggested pin locations in his course but the game have the ability to override it,  have the option to pick the locations what we like, pretty much like in real life. Jack Nicklaus doesn't force you to put the pins in certain spots on his courses?

In game option: Pick random pins on fastest settings = areas with min 3 yard radius with slopes not more than x degrees.

[Armand]

I'm not a designer (and haven't played Links in quite some time either), but what about the designers not even selecting hole locations - just leave it to the tour/event admin to select pins based on whatever their criteria may be?  OK, I guess the designer would have to have at least one or more default pins (so the game can be played outside of tournament atmosphere without the player having to set up the course themselves prior to playing), but if tour admins could set the pins in any location on the greens, that would be a bit closer to real touraments.

 

Armand

[axe360]

If a designer makes ALL pins playable on the Fastest conditions, then all pins would be playable on any conditions, therefore no problem... It's easy, its up to the designer to make the pins playable!

[highfade]

If a designer makes ALL pins playable on the Fastest conditions, then all pins would be playable on any conditions, therefore no problem... It's easy, its up to the designer to make the pins playable!

I totally agree with that but some will still stuck pins on the side of a hill and call it a difficult pin for slower conditions. A difficult pin for me is how accessible it is from the approach shot.

There should be and option in the game to grey out unfair pins or you should be able to select your own locations other than where the designer put it.

 

I like to play the real pins the pro's play on major tournaments but the designer didn't put any pins in that locations.

[clint]

Like IRL you have pins that are difficult because the green speed is fast. Next time the same pin is easy because of soft greens. To use random pins is the problem. So any designer must be very careful setting the pins and rate (easy, medium, difficult) them.

 

This will ever be a point of discussion

[highfade]

Putting on slower green is in general easier regardless of where the pin is but you're right about one thing, it's an endless discussion.

 

I like to play the fastest setting and only a handful of courses have all the pins fair so they end up not played. 

[Dazmaniac]

Making the pins playable at the firmest/fastest setting combo's is certainly a good idea. The one problem this brings is that these pins then become a little too easy if a softer/slower combo is selected. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

One other option would be to make the putting part of the game difficult. It isn't easy IRL.

 

I play Links 2003 (at Champ Click and have for years) and at the Pro setting the penalty for missing the snap when putting doesn't penalise the shot enough IMO. For me, for those playing at Pro should have Pro settings from tee to green but then the putting should be equivalent to what players at Elite use. Likewise, those at Elite should have putting that is effectively 'off the charts' as commentators like to say.

 

By making the putting element of the game tougher, means that even the courses with the flatter greens should still be challenge, as they would be IRL.

 

It would certainly add some nervous tension when your animation is stood over a flattish 3 footer, lol.

 

[Davefevs]

@daz - agree that putting should be harder than in links. It's too easy ( in relation to other elements of the game), especially putts inside 6 feet, which in real life wouldn't be!

Perhaps another factor is that the cup sucks the ball in, when you ought to see more lipped putts.

[cammel]

If possible CF should have pin settings of slow,medium,fast and tournament speed, with a subset setting of easy,medium and difficult for for each speed.With either 3 or 4 pins per difficulty setting.you would still have to plant 12 or 16 pins per hole.But it would solve alot of the problems.

[axe360]

It would be one helluva chore to set 12 to 16 pins per hole from a designers stand point.. It might be easy if every green were perfectly flat but there not.. 4 is probably the limit, that's still some work to get right...

[Davefevs]

It would be one helluva chore to set 12 to 16 pins per hole from a designers stand point.. It might be easy if every green were perfectly flat but there not.. 4 is probably the limit, that's still some work to get right...

From an ignorant point of view, why is Ito difficult to plant pins? Is it hard to see the slopes when planting, ie. do you have to do it in overhead view? Thought CF showed some pics of pin planting in 3d view?

[Stephen Sullivan]

Dave   In APCD it is almost impossible to gauge slopes. In the end a coloured and numbered texture was produced that some people used when planting pins. It was a case of planting pins then going into teh game and making note of any that were in too steep a spot.  It took time, but IMO it was vital .

[Davefevs]

@sully - here's the link to the gallery showing that pins can be placed on the 3d view

http://www.perfectpa...lant-your-pins/

Hope that makes it easier?

[highfade]

Dave   In APCD it is almost impossible to gauge slopes. In the end a coloured and numbered texture was produced that some people used when planting pins. It was a case of planting pins then going into teh game and making note of any that were in too steep a spot.  It took time, but IMO it was vital .

I created that numbered texture   and although it was still a drag it saved me a lot of time and I'm pretty sure all my pins are playable on the fastest setting.   

[axe360]

I don't use the APCD I use TW's CA, its just that you would have to make sure each and every pin is playable. Sure it's easy to just plant a pin, takes 1 sec, but then you have to go back into the game and make sure that pin is playable, do that for 12 pins on 18 holes and I would be in my grave by then...

Like I said, 4 pins are doable. You can see slopes pretty much in the TW's CA but you still have to go back into the game and check each pin you drop to make sure it is playable... I'm not saying someone can't set 12 pins per hole in this new CF, maybe they have a completely different way of doing things..

 

But, and it's a big but, you still have to go back into the game and check each and every pin...I wouldn't be interested in doing all that.. I mean, I'm not lazy, I just released at course that took me well into 3 months to do..

All I can base this on is my past experience with the TW's CA, I'm sure the new CF will have new ways to do things..

 

And Sully666 is right, any good designer worth his salt, will have to go back into the game and playtest every one of his pins that he sets...

[Dazmaniac]

I don't use the APCD I use TW's CA, its just that you would have to make sure each and every pin is playable. Sure it's easy to just plant a pin, takes 1 sec, but then you have to go back into the game and make sure that pin is playable, do that for 12 pins on 18 holes and I would be in my grave by then...

Like I said, 4 pins are doable. You can see slopes pretty much in the TW's CA but you still have to go back into the game and check each pin you drop to make sure it is playable... I'm not saying someone can't set 12 pins per hole in this new CF, maybe they have a completely different way of doing things..

 

But, and it's a big but, you still have to go back into the game and check each and every pin...I wouldn't be interested in doing all that.. I mean, I'm not lazy, I just released at course that took me well into 3 months to do..

All I can base this on is my past experience with the TW's CA, I'm sure the new CF will have new ways to do things..

 

And Sully666 is right, any good designer worth his salt, will have to go back into the game and playtest every one of his pins that he sets...

 

This is where hopefully the BETA testers of a course will be able to assist. Many Links courses are BETA tested before final release to check for a multitude of things, with playable pins being one of them.

 

That said, some courses are specifically designed not to accommodate the hardest/fastest combination settings, as you usually find these on sun burnt Links courses or US Open venues. A designer shouldn't have to make the course playable at the most extreme settings, as this might not be realistic for the course setting.

 

A course up in the mountains is probably never going to greens like marble staircases and the designers design them that way. The problems then ensue when the course is released and someone plays it a the hardest/fastest combination and says some of the pins are unplayable, even though in the designers eye it was never created with such settings in mind.

[Acrilix]

Using APCD it is normal to place 18 pins on every green. It is almost impossible to judge the slopes in APCD itself - you have to enter the game to check them. You could play 18 rounds, setting a different pin each round (all pin 1's, then all pin 2's etc) to check them. Most designers though use the BLI, which is a putting device to check slopes. In practice mode, all pin positions can be shown at once, and you can simply move the BLI around the green to check all pin positions, and then move on to the next hole.

My only problem with making all pins playable on the fastest speed is that the fastest speed on the mod version of Links is unrealistic for most courses in the world, and because of this, you couldn't place pins where they are placed on some real courses - especially non-tournament courses where greens tend to be a lot slower.

As AJ was the guy who implemented this fastest speed on Links, I can only imagine that a similar speed will be available on Perfect Golf. This is the BIG problem I have with making every pin playable at the fastest setting. It will destroy realism for all but the 'Augusta type' courses of the world.

If I recreated one of the local courses here, I would not be able to plant all the pins where they are actually planted on that course, because they would never pass the fastest pin test!!! It would then be totally unrealistic, which IMO defeats the purpose of a realistic golf simulation.