51 replies to this topic

[spy88]

Everything I say here is meant for the devs but open to anyone else.  This is not a rant or a criticism of JNPG so read it carefully and PLEASE, do not take what I say as either. 

 

I'm sure there are many of us JNPG'ers that have played real golf.  I did from 1965-2012. From this length of time playing/practicing, I thought it time to bring up a few major questions I'd like to hear answered as I know you are always striving to attain as realistic a sim as possible.  Within the game, the following are the most pressing issues for me...

 

1)  With only two exceptions, have I seen a ball hit for a fade or a draw staying a fade or a draw all the way to it landing.  In PG, this is the case & has to be taken into consideration but the laws of physics are broken.  This is what we have to accept and I'm ok with it...but physics is a rl factor.  Those two exceptions?

a)  A extreme slice or hook.   And  A very bad slice or hook in strong wind that accentuates the effect.  (Don't know how the stupid emot got there for " B)" but try as I might, couldn't eliminate it so...).   

 

2)  Speaking of wind.  The further a ball travels and its arc height (driver @ 100%, a respectable snap and shot shape to the top), the more time any wind (with, against or side) will affect its trajectory and distance.  This is again simple physics.  But in PG, having a 15-25 mph wind has some effect but not as much as it should. Yet hit a full shot from inside 150 yds and the effect gets worse, then more pronounced the shorter the distance (flops, chips, pitches and splashes).  This is contrary to physics and again, we take it into consideration and cope.  I'm ok with this.

 

3)  Next I can't tell you how many times I've been in a position (green fringe or 1st cut) to want a "bump-and-run" option using any club.  We don't have it and I accept it and move on.    

 

4)  Lastly, (and this may be the biggest point of contention among JNPG players and the devs) the % of power loss when in the rough is beyond real golf imo and experience.  Clubbing down to obtain the distance only worsens this (and it should) but the given increase isn't (IMO!) realistic.  And I can live with this also.  At this point, I'll take a bunker shot (0 to less than 20% power loss) over rough every time.  But it's as if we're almost always in a wheat field, not a golf course rough.  Pine needles at Augusta.  Averaging 20+/-3% loss?  Just don't see it.   

 

Many of you may disagree with my assessments for various reasons, and I may or may not consider them valid..doesn't mean they aren't from your pov. This is not the point I'm trying to make.  And I truly and sincerely hope not to "upset" the devs with saying them.

There are other issues I'd like to ask about but the points I do state are questioning the devs as to whether or not...

are the first two points simply the complexity of programming required or...?  

The 3rd, a meter issue or...?

The 4th is more for reality.  Is this truly what you believe is as accurate as IRL?  

I'll not come back with a post questioning your answers...just asking for the answers from you, regardless of what they are and accepting them.  

 

So rant on me if you want or simply agree to disagree...I'm open to either or both.  I'm just hoping any of the devs will take this as written and meant not as criticism, but simply as questions they'll consider openly answering. Thanks all and especially the devs.  I've had more fun (and frustration) in the last 16+ months then with WGT...I'm loyal, devout and a defender!.  (Same for Bernie but that's a different topic  ). 

[johnmeyer]

Early in the Sim BETA days I did begin to look into the rough penalties, but other things took precedence unfortunately.

 

Were working from a couple of interesting articles regarding both ball speed reduction, and also spin reduction, when hitting from the rough

 

http://shortgamesecr...-created-equall

 

http://www.golfwrx.c...tpc-scottsdale/

[johnmeyer]

I also suggest another very weak area is chips in general around the green, and the sometimes excessive, sometiimes too low run outs when hitting any thing around the green. Now looking at it from a sim stance where we can examine the exact Launch angles etc as I thnk the physics curve is out somewhere

[mebby]

Can't speak much to number 1.  Seems OK to me but I may be blissfully ignorant here (and yes, I do play golf IRL and have been playing avidly for 20 years or so)

 

Item 2 again seems mostly OK but I agree it need another look.  Sometimes I feel like the wind impact is understated but I can't tell if this is because it's so grossly overstated in other games or if it's just truly understated.

 

Item 4 - fully and completely agree.  But I'm not sure I'd like the result if they changed it so I'm not sure what to expect here.  I feel like if they lessen the penalties then it will be too easy to still score from the rough.  But I won't know until I see it.  I do, however, agree that the power loss % is excessive in many places while hitting from the bunker is mostly a non-event.

[jt83]

1 - No idea.  I'd have to look at ProTracer.

2 - Not much of an idea, but a driver shot has a more penetrating ball flight; a high wedge would be affected by the wind more, right?

3 - You can bump and run with any club - just select it and hit it about 30%  That's what I do with the hybrid from under a tree.  Are you saying you want to select a bump the way you can select a splash?

4 - You're probably right but the game has a lot of other obstacles to get over first, like selling more copies.  I'll be writing to the only PC games mag we have in Australia to ask if they'll be doing a review and why it wasn't covered in EA.

[Griz891]

I agree that the wind doesn't work like it should or at all. Another thing that bothers me is how a high trajectory shot can land in a sandtrap and not plug, but instead bounces....lol. For the life of me I've never seen that playing real golf. I played a round  the other night and between the wind not working and the bouncy sandtraps, just takes the realistic experience and throws it out the window. 

[Modman1]

I totally agree with #2 and #4.  So many times the wind has no effect on the ball and other times it does.  Also, calm sometimes is the same as breezy and breezy is nearly the same as gusty and windy, well maybe a better name would be hurricane.  Anyone know how strong the wind is at the British Open when a ball on the green is moved by the wind?  Brendan? Seems windy would do that also.  One other question about wind.  Can breezy be set up so it is 7-12 mph or other speeds?  When I play a OGT tournament with breezy conditions is everyone playing those exact wind conditions?  Anyone know?

 #4, the rough is too easy in many cases.  Using a wood has the least amount of power loss which makes no sense.  Then again you are on a sloped hill and you hit a wood and the ball goes nowhere.  Overall, I think spy88 comments were well said.

[Armand]

The wind for me seems OK, other than its speed.  On a windy round (and if I neglect the reported speed of 40-47 mph), the ball seems to react exactly as I expect it would in real life windy conditions.  However, I don't think I've played more than one or two rounds in 40+ mph winds, so it seems to me that windy in the game is closer to perhaps 30-40 mph winds - but I don't know, because I don't have the real wind speeds on the course.   Has anyone noticed the winds affecting putts?  It didn't seem to in my recent round at Crystal Pines with a 14 stimp, hard conditions, and high winds.

 

There does seem to be a gap in the wind between gusty and windy, though.  To me, it would be a perfect spot to put a new 'windy' condition or perhaps 'sustained wind' (about 25-35 mph).  Then, the current 'windy' could be re-branded as 'very windy', or similar.  Maybe it is our interpretation/expectation of the wind based on previous games, I don't know.  Then again, we could just throw away all of the settings and have RTW decide the wind and not even show us the exact wind speed in the game ... still a bit more to be done to get there, I think!

 

I like playing in Windy conditions in the game.  It really makes you plan your shots, or forces you into some hooks into the wind or slices up against it.  I don't use the shot shaper for anything but high or low; rather, I use RTS to get such trajectories.

 

As for the bunkers, I think they are largely pretty good.  A high trajectory shot doesn't always plug in real life - that is highly dependent on the nature and depth of the sand.  I don't think the game has plugged lies in the bunkers yet, though.  I assume it's coming at some point. 

 

I've tried to play a few bump and runs, even with long longer chips.  To me, there seems to be too much spin imparted on the ball, and it just dies after the first bounce or so.  This remains the same when chipping from the rough with the 60° wedge.  It seems we have perfect contact between the clubface and ball, without ever there being a chance of grass in between to eliminate the spin.  I don't carry anything more than my PW for chipping in real life (rarely will I chip with my SW), so perhaps I'm just not used to how a 60° wedge spins.  Regardless, I can't pitch in the game very well with the PW, since it goes much too far with even a tiny movement of the mouse.  I feel I'm a better chipper in real life than in the game - and that isn't saying much! 

 

Some great points for discussion, though, spy88!

[Mulligan]

So many times the wind has no effect on the ball and other times it does.  Also, calm sometimes is the same as breezy and breezy is nearly the same as gusty and windy, well maybe a better name would be hurricane. 

 

Isn't this how it is in real life?

[Andrew]

I dont really understand 1) so I will skip that... Are you saying that a ball starts off fading and then starts to draw?

On the subject of wind what everyone has to understand is that every other golf game out there just has a wind and applies it uniformly to the ball so a ball hit 1ft off the ground will be affected the same as a ball hit over the tree line.  To us this made no sense we we built in a gust factor as well as an elevatin coefficient.  The displayed wind is the wind that exists above the tree line.  As you come down to ground level the wind is reduced So if you hit a low 4Iron shot it is unlikely to experience the full force of the wind except for a fraction of its time in the air if at all.  So when you are playing in the wind you have to factor in the type of shot you are hitting into how far you think the wind will aim offline.  As the wind gets up to Windy levels the amount of wind at gorund level has increased to a point where the ball will be affected through out its flight 

As far as lies in the rough goes you have to have a balance between game play and real life.  If you just give a small penalty for going in the rough there is no penalty and so players will not care about hitting the fairway and this ruins the strategic aspects of the game.  The reason people hate the large penalties is because quite often they cant get the ball on the green near the hole.  This is by design and is an element where we allow game play to take preference over IRL. In Real Life poeple do not try to hit 3Irons out of 3inch deep rough instead they take a 7Iron and lay up and try to get up and down or something similar.  But in Computer Golf they grab a 3Iron and hope to hit the green.  

[roande47]

Agree with Andrew

[frank70]

The explanation of the rough penalty by Andrew makes totally sense. I think that the spin penalty could be even higher with wedges or shorter irons you can stop the ball pretty good when lofting up.

 

The overpronounced spin effect for shots out of the rough is even more obvious around the greens. Chips, pitches and flops should have way more rollout.

 

Other than that the physics are really "believable". Means that they totally pass the eye test when playing a round. Maybe the wind factor could be a tad more pronounced - but only a tad. I sometimes feel that a crosswind of 20 mph could do a little, little bit more to the ball. I could very well be wrong though - influenced by the experience with other golf games.

 

All in all the physics and the swing mechanics are by faaaar the best in the business, by far!

[spy88]

Thank you all for your comments, thoughts and input.  Glad many of you see the same points I've made.

 

And a special Thank You to Andrew for commenting on my post.  But first off, I'd like to apologize for suggesting you have control of the rough on all courses provided.  It's been posed to me that in the case of Augusta, you had no input to the "pine needle" lie I described.  So that's out the window if true.

 

I don't really understand 1) so I will skip that... Are you saying that a ball starts off fading and then starts to draw?

Andrew, as for "not understanding" my first point..

No, that isn't what I'm saying.  It's a simple matter of physics.  Speaking specifically about a driver @ 100% power, shot shaper all the way to the top and a dead-on snap.  For example, if a pro is attempting a draw, they will aim to the right side of the fairway with a slightly closed face. This imparts a side spin to the left.  Once the ball is hit, the forward momentum immediately begins to deteriorate as does any spin.  This is cause and effect of interaction with the air.  If you've ever watched a pro tourney on tv, many of them will occasionally use a "tool" (jt83 called it a "ProTracer" and I think that's it) that shows a comet-tail of the ball from tee to ground.  Because of the interaction with air, a draw will move right to left...but only up to a point.  This point is just past the highest part of the ball's arc in flight.  Then it loses effective spin and forward momentum drastically and falls as gravity pulls it to the ground.  But in PG, this isn't the case.  The is no air effect in the game to slow then stop side movement thus the ball continues to go right to left until it hits the ground...no physics involved except gravity.  Same for a fade.  (I apologize if I've over-explained this but just taking you at your word).  Mike's experience and knowledge should either validate this or add to it.  So my question was simply...is this because the coding is too difficult to program or...?

As for wind affecting shots, I agree with your assessment completely...except (and I said I wouldn't do this) for all the times I've played in gusty conditions, (PG & IRL).  So when you say..." As you come down to ground level the wind is reduced." I agree.  So why does say a 50' chip, pitch, flop or splash into a gusty wind, knock it down 5-10' short?  It shouldn't have that much effect (if any) as there just isn't enough time for the air friction to slow the ball's forward momentum.  But if the wind was 40+ mph, then I'd understand it (but I also wouldn't be out playing in it either)!

 

jt83..."2- Not much of an idea, but a driver shot has a more penetrating ball flight; a high wedge would be affected by the wind more, right?"

Yes and no.  All shots, regardless of club, will have a initial "penetrating" flight.  But the physics of the ball interacting with air causes friction which eventually kills that penetration and any spin imparted.  The shorter the shot, the less time the air has to alter its distance and direction so a wedge shot, even a high one, should not  have more affect to d and d then a driver.  Just the opposite.

 

Armand1..."The wind for me seems OK, other than its speed."  

Yes, I have no concerns  for any wind we're given.  That wasn't and isn't my question.  It's the effect it has on the ball.  

 

Frank70..."I sometimes feel that a crosswind of 20 mph could do a little, little bit more to the ball. I could very well be wrong though..."

I would agree with this but my point was about directly into a wind, not a crosswind.

 

Modman1..."Anyone know how strong the wind is at the British Open when a ball on the green is moved by the wind?"  

All I can tell you is that the British Open is played on several different courses in the U.K.  But I can  tell you that on any of them, on any given day throughout the year, the wind averages less than 15 mph.  Yes, there are days it blows like a sob and some of those days happen when the event is running.  But more to your question, much of the answer depends on the position of the ball...i.e. any slight slope together with high wind can move a ball, or at least wobble it.  And even a small hump can protect it from moving also.

[Buck]

The displayed wind is the wind that exists above the tree line.

 

This was new information to me - Thank you!

[spy88]

This was new information to me - Thank you!

This is as it is irl play also.  Along with swirls and gusts above and below is also as irl.  So saying this should  imply that below the treeline, the wind should have less  effect and I'm not seeing this in JNPG.

[Buck]

This is as it is irl play also.

 

Yes, I'm aware of that of course, but was not aware of what the actual wind indication in PG was giving us a reading of.

[Modman1]

Back to the rough and I understand what Andrew was saying and agree BUT.....where a 4I may have a 20% loss in power a 7w has only a 10% so where I can not get to the green with the 4i I can with the wood.  In real golf would they use a wood out of a 3 or 4" rough?  Also how does the wind affect the flight of the ball on a course with no trees? Hope that's not a stupid question.

[Ted_Ball]

Agree with Andrew

Bravo

 

I understand what spy88 is saying and I've noticed it myself. I've just played a round in calm conditions and a slight draw just keeps drawing until it hits the ground. From what I've seen with tracking lines in real life the ball drops straight down when the forces from the club become minor. I don't suppose you can argue with physics even if they are computer generated.

 

As for the rough penalty. My pet hate. Having a ball trickle off the fairway by two or three inches in real dimensions and cop a penalty of more than 10%. Strange mowing technique there. I suppose it's up to the guy who builds the course how the rough behaves at a given point but we golfers are in the dark. We only see a flat looking texture with a different hue to the fairway.

[Acrilix]

..... but was not aware of what the actual wind indication in PG was giving us a reading of.

 

That's fine if the course you are playing is completely wooded, but the game doesn't detect where the trees are, so if you play a links course then the effects are going to be completely unrealistic following this model.

I agree though that it is, on average, an improvement over previous golf games as most golf courses tend to have tree cover.

[Buck]

As for the rough penalty. My pet hate. Having a ball trickle off the fairway by two or three inches in real dimensions and cop a penalty of more than 10%. Strange mowing technique there. 

 

My uncle and I joke about this every time we play.....hard fairways and one of us will gently roll 2" into the rough and somehow it will often be a 20%+ penalty...

 

Umm... Seems a bit hard to believe...  

Does make us laugh at least I guess?