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Time To Question A Few Things...from mpov


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#41 spy88

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Posted 11 June 2016 - 01:01 PM

I don't think the ball continues to work right to left from tee to ground. What I see is the ball turning to a point beyond the apex and then as it loses its spin it continues on a straighter path and that is when the wind will sometimes push it back a little. I play RTS M. Don't know about other swing methods, but I must say the ball does swing more when I tried 3C. But I generally find that an unrealistic mode anyway.

robbie, are you talking about in JNPG or irl?  Because what you say above is JNPG.  The ball doesn't react as it should irl.



#42 spy88

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 09:17 PM

ok, I give up posting questions for the devs.  I realize they are extremely busy with behind-the-scenes work to JNPG but if I can't even get a simple YES or NO to asking if the true physics of a draw or fade shot is too difficult to program (as illustrated by Luke Donald and Ernie Els shots in post #26) then I'll keep my mouth shut about everything.  My angst might be in part due to the meter issues I stated in a previous post but I'm still more than piqued.  

 

Andrew asked me to explain but got no response when I did so why ask?   


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#43 Stephen Sullivan

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Posted 19 June 2016 - 09:34 PM

Lack of communication seems to be SOP.  We know they are busy, but they really do need to improve their communication with the people who are playing.  


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#44 tlvx

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 11:43 AM

ok, I give up posting questions for the devs. I realize they are extremely busy with behind-the-scenes work to JNPG but if I can't even get a simple YES or NO to asking if the true physics of a draw or fade shot is too difficult to program (as illustrated by Luke Donald and Ernie Els shots in post #26) then I'll keep my mouth shut about everything. My angst might be in part due to the meter issues I stated in a previous post but I'm still more than piqued.

Andrew asked me to explain but got no response when I did so why ask?


Perhaps this is something that would theoretically be correct in the Simulator version; as, the correct Spin RPM, both vertical and horizontal, should produce shots where fades and draws can be distinguished from hooks and slices.

That said, when it comes to the video game version, the vertical Spin RPM is most certainly being miscalculated, based far too heavily on swing speed, with not nearly enough consideration for the launch angle.

So, it makes sense that working the ball horizontally, in the video game version, is not going to be as intuitive as it would or should be in the Simulator version, as well.

Although, it appears to be possible, to create some interesting back-door trajectories, that both fade and draw, all in the same shot.

I'm not convinced these physics are an accurate representation of golf. But, it's definitely possible - in the game - to hit a shot that fades or draws to a point, and then stops fading or drawing.

It's just not something that can be easily done, without adjusting more than just the Shot Shaper. Like, adding an intentional slight mishit to the equation, in the opposite horizontal direction.

The thing I find more lacking, is the ability to work the ball with the wedges, at all... without severe mishits; that, naturally take away huge amounts of distance control, on the higher levels of difficulty.

I don't think it would be possible to duplicate a Bubba Watson 40 yard hook, with a gap wedge, in this game. Not on purpose, at least.

Instead of having a contrived Shot Shaper, where the factors of a shot are nonspecific, we should have setup options for Face Angle, both vertical and horizontal; as well as, the ability to move the ball in our stance.

Those options would theoretically be able to produce an infinite amount of factually accurate representations of actual golf shots.

But, I'm not so sure the intent was ever to give us that much control over our shot.

It's where this game's developmental philosophy, versus realism, start to run opposite of each other.

#45 spy88

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 12:44 PM

tlvx, agree with most of your post.  However, I never was, nor am I now asking for a as irl fade or draw to be incorporated...however nice that would be.  All I ever wanted for Christmas was just a simple "Yes, it's too hard to accurately program in a true fade or draw" or "No, it's not a matter of programming, it's whatever...".

 

And I'm willing to accept whatever I'm given as an explanation and let it go...if  I can get it.



#46 tlvx

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 01:24 PM

tlvx, agree with most of your post. However, I never was, nor am I now asking for a as irl fade or draw to be incorporated...however nice that would be. All I ever wanted for Christmas was just a simple "Yes, it's too hard to accurately program in a true fade or draw" or "No, it's not a matter of programming, it's whatever...".

And I'm willing to accept whatever I'm given as an explanation and let it go...if I can get it.


If we've learned anything from this game's development; it's that the development team is not going to come out and admit that they don't know what they are doing, or that, they can't quite figure out true golf shot physics.

They've been claiming from day one to be, "within 2% of actual golf physics," whatever that means.

Even if those claims were true, than a two percent failure has proven to be significant, in terms of the eye test.

The issue with the video game version, however, is a subjective one. I think one of the reasons they don't provide more specific setup options, is precisely because it would be easier to challenge their version of golf physics... based on the math.

As it is, it's a lot more subjective than that, with varying control methods, that oftentimes provide varying degrees of control.

So, it's difficult to set a primer, for a discussion regarding how to achieve a correct non-straight golf shot result.

As it stands, they can always just fall back on; "well the user is just not doing it right." Or, "perhaps try a different control method."

We know for a fact that certain swing methods cannot produce the same types of shots as other methods.

But, this just means that the setup options are not specific or detailed enough.

Which brings the discussion right back to square one: the developers motivations, philosophy, and intent; for whether or not they want players to have that kind of control; and, whether or not they want their setup options to be specific enough, so as to be subject to fact-checking scrutiny.

As this discussion has aptly alluded to; the eye test is indicative of some deficiencies in the game physics.

There are some greater in-game physics issues, though: like the ball penetrating underneath the turf; and the ball at times seemingly rolling uphill with the mass of bowling ball... particularly when those two things occur simultaneously.

There is far too much deviation between a shot that sits or zips, versus a shot that rolls on seemingly forever... when struck with the same club, the only difference being the power of the shot.

Some shots get hung up on severe down slopes, for no apparent reason. It's like gravity is not always active in certain areas.

As always, we can blame a lot of this on the Unity engine. But, of course, the ultimate responsibility for choosing an engine, and figuring out how to apply that source code to aerodynamic physics, falls squarely at the feet of the game makers.
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#47 Stephen Sullivan

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 05:02 PM

...and of course it's too late now to change game engine  ;)


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#48 jt83

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 12:53 PM


Instead of having a contrived Shot Shaper, where the factors of a shot are nonspecific, we should have setup options for Face Angle, both vertical and horizontal; as well as, the ability to move the ball in our stance.

 

IRL all shots are pretty much non-specific; I highly doubt a pro looks down at the ball and thinks 'I have to hit a 13 degree closed face draw here.'  All those options that you want already work with the shop-shaper - it might not result in the avatar setting up with a different stance (although that would be nice), but the effect is the same.  I'd much prefer to get a feel for a game over crunching numbers.  I'm all for brilliant physics - in the background.

 

At this point I'd prefer PP iron out ongoing issues and let us know what their ideas are for moving forward.  The Steamspy figures are concerning.



#49 Sup?

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 02:56 PM

Well, they have obviously made a decision to stay away, or at least not communicate with the community as much as they used to.  Mike used to post pretty much everyday a year ago.



#50 tlvx

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 04:28 PM

I'm all for brilliant physics - in the background


If we had physics that worked more like real life, it would be fine the way it is.

This game seems to think that Spin RPM increases nearly twofold, from 100 to 122 MPH... regardless of launch angle.

Those are the most inventive laws of golf physics I can ever recall from a video golf game.

I would gather the Simulator version produces much more realistic results, due to the Spin RPM being directly fed into the game - based on actual swing data - instead of being deliberately falsified.

#51 jt83

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 07:15 AM

If we had physics that worked more like real life, it would be fine the way it is.

This game seems to think that Spin RPM increases nearly twofold, from 100 to 122 MPH... regardless of launch angle.

Those are the most inventive laws of golf physics I can ever recall from a video golf game.

I would gather the Simulator version produces much more realistic results, due to the Spin RPM being directly fed into the game - based on actual swing data - instead of being deliberately falsified.

 

I assume you're talking about wedge spin rates, as my driver on the range maxes out at 2686 at 100%.  My PW was around 12000 at 100%, 20000 at 122%.

 

You say that's inventive - do you have any data to prove it?  The online trajectory optimizer only goes up to 12000RPM.

 

Assuming that your spin RPM observation is true, I guess it shouldn't be that hard to adjust - the swing meter would just have to reflect simulator data more closely.



#52 tlvx

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 07:51 AM

I guess it shouldn't be that hard to adjust - the swing meter would just have to reflect simulator data more closely.


The issue also affects the long irons and woods. The Driver seems to be the only club that's unaffected by these inventive physics.

Also, we don't need to prove their math... they need to prove their math.

But, when one encounters any number of oddities, that could never conceivably happen in real life... it should then be glaringly obvious that the math doesn't quite add up.

I'd just hope that at some point in the future we get game physics that are taken from the data gleaned by actual golf shots on the Simulator version. (Shots hit by Tour players, of course)

It shouldn't be that hard to extrapolate data from shots struck by Tour players, at various swing speeds, ball speeds, and launch angles.

Eventually, the software should be able to come up with a primer, so that the in-game shot factors can be calculated a lot more realistically, based on their real world counterparts.




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