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BARE - Base Assist Realism Events


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#21 Stephen Sullivan

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 07:58 PM

We know... we know.  This game won't ever have PowerStroke so you either need to stick with Links and give this game up or stick with JNPG and give up Links.  Not trying to be flippant but you bring up this topic in nearly every single thread and it's getting a little tiresome.

Really don't see what putting in a horizontal gauge would "cost".  

 

I am REALLY trying to like this game, but I get more enjoyment out of Links powerstroke than I do any of the swings available in PG.  Getting to the point where I may just stop posting and give up on the game as you all seem to want me to.  :angry:  :unsure:  -_-

 

At least I can express an opinion at Links Corner and LSPN  :angry:  :(


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#22 frank70

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 08:06 PM

@stonecomet

I am of a totally different opinion considering the tour pro difficulty. Imho we should play with off/off swing assists again. For me the scores are even too low. Some real courses are ripped apart by the top players. In my “perfect golf world“ it would be really hard for the top players to break par on a course like Augusta. Right now it is not. Scores are 2 to 3 strokes on average lower than on the PGA Tour. Why should we make the game even easier?

We have five difficulty levels right now - enough choice for me. Dumbing down tour pro just to make anybody to reach the highest level - and sacrificing the sim-approach in the meantime? I don't think that will help sales at all.

My take is: the devs weren't able yet to promote the game enough to lure more players in. Double up the player base and we would have way more players on the tour pro level as well.

I play a lot of sports game on medium difficulty levels and don't have a problem with that at all. We have pretty big fields in all difficulty levels at OGT. Seems to be working to me.

#23 StoneComet

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 08:26 PM

@Stone:  Interesting post.

 

One thing that I think is frustrating for some as it pertains to difficulty levels is that not everyone will be able to play well at the most challenging levels of a game (or sport...or anything in life really).  Some people are just going to be better at certain things....always...no matter how much some practice.  We humans are all just different in what we excel at (or not).

 

May I ask where you've seen or felt condescension from Tour Pro players?  Perhaps you could link to some comments that showcase what you mean?  (I play TP, full disclosure).  

 

I can't say I've ever really seen that sort of commentary.  I think it's usually just a desire from TP players to mostly only play with others on TP so that things are equal and as competitive as possible around the same points of challenge and difficulty.

 

I understand that we all cannot play at the top level, I really do. I'm not advocating a gold star for everyone. I played Football and ran Track in High School for years. We went to the State semi's twice but never made the State Championship game because the other teams were better. We competed just as fiercely in track and I was on the mile relay team. My best quarter mile time was posted during the County Championships, I believe it was a 53 which beat my personal record by 6 seconds and we ended up winning that race. When I got the baton in leg 3 the leader was about 10 yards ahead of me. I had no business passing him but I did it on the back stretch with a lot of grit and determination. I'm 5'7' with short legs not an ideal physique for the quarter mile. It also helped that it was my senior year and Ii had worked very hard to get to that level. The anchor leg buried the competition to bring home the win for that event. I think we ended up placing second overall in the competion. That's personally one of my proudest moments in sports. All that so you can understand that I understand competition.

 

What I am saying is that the developer is in control of how difficult this game can be and managing that difficulty at the Top Level is more of a business decision than a real test of competitiveness in real world conditions. At some point they have to balance the game for maximum retention and that means keeping some of the Top players who can be great ambassadors for the game happy but only so far at the expense of the vast majority of the general public.

I'm not going to call anyone out on a vague impression or possibly my own misconceptions but I will point you to this post and if you carefully read the reactions after the post you might get an inkling of what I am talking about. It comes from one of the NAP Tournament threads. No one is specifically being condescending but the reactions to the event going Pro are interesting to note. I understand that some of these players might just be notifying the administrators of the event what they will be doing. However you will note, I played all events prior with little mention about the difficulty level other than it was not my regular difficulty level. I played them all at Tour Pro and then as soon as someone mentions Pro level almost all the Top Tour Pro players are out. Now your going to argue that that is because you want to make sure everyone is on the same playing field. I'll get to that later.

 

The point is, I was willing to try it at the Tour Pro level but when it gets changed quite a few Tour Pro players could not condescend to drop down to that level of play while I was willing to give it a go at their level. You will also note and here is where it gets really interesting; My post was simply about my inability to play at that level both competitively and enjoyably. That is why I was bowing out. A Tour Pro player would have a hard time convincing me that the reverse is true. But as soon as the event organizer says "boo", a fair amount of players are raring to drop out.

 

I quote you; "I think it's usually just a desire from TP players to mostly only play with others on TP so that things are equal and as competitive as possible around the same points of challenge and difficulty."

 

This to me is a "Straw Man Argument". I'll concede the part about the same points of challenge and difficulty as they are specific to a difficulty level. Basically this passage about points of difficulty is a preference of play and has nothing to do with a level playing field. Are you saying that if you drop down to Pro level I can somehow take advantage of you even though you play much better than me at Tour Pro? If the event is set at Pro we all play at Pro. If anything playing at this level should be easier for the Tour Pro. The only advantage the Pro player gets is the ability to even compete. Essentially, leveling the playing field. Are you saying that another Tour Pro level player has the advantage if you BOTH drop down to Pro? I do not expect you to see it all my way but that is the way I see it and that is some of what I am alluding to when I say that I perceive an underlying ​level of condescension from some Tour Pro players attitudes as reflected through the forum.

 

Basically, from my point of view, your arguing against something that is not event there when arguing that the only way the game can be level, in your mind, is if we all play Tour Pro. Or at the very least that I play at Tour Pro when playing you or you will have nothing to do with it. That's your right, but with all due respect that is the essence of condescension.

 

Don't get to caught up in the negative connotations of the word condescend as it is a natural social condition that occurs sometimes inadvertently. It is also relies heavily on perception. If I perceive it, it's up to you to validate or dismiss that perception. You'll have to do your own soul searching, if you were inclined to do so, in order to answer that question for yourself. I can at times come off as condescending and that is a valid observation from time to time.

 

Again I apologize to Ted_Ball. I'll reserve any further speculation or observations about difficulty and player relations for elsewhere.


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#24 Buck

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 08:34 PM

This to me is a "Straw Man Argument". I'll concede the part about the same points of challenge and difficulty as they are specific to a difficulty level. Basically this passage about points of difficulty is a preference of play and has nothing to do with a level playing field. Are you saying that if you drop down to Pro level I can somehow take advantage of you even though you play much better than me at Tour Pro?


Sorry I wasn’t clearer on this…

For RTS-C, I just find levels below Tour Pro uninteresting and choose not to play them.  
Nothing more, nothing less.  That's the only reason I didn't want to play a Pro level RTS-C NAP event.  I don't enjoy playing at Pro level.
 
 

Basically, from my point of view, your arguing against something that is not event there when arguing that the only way the game can be level, in your mind, is if we all play Tour Pro.



I do not feel that everyone needs to play Tour Pro to be level and I’m sorry you felt I implied that.

I personally just want to compete against people using the same level of assists and thus confronting the same challenges.  I don't think there's anything wrong with anyone enjoying any level of play!  That's the whole reason we have the levels (in my view at least).



I think the root of us seeing this differently is that I don't look at the challenge/assist levels as a way to bring every single player of the game all into one event(s), but rather as a way to tune the game to play how people enjoy playing...and then filter events around those differing levels of challenge/assists.

Does that make sense?


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#25 mebby

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 08:36 PM

Really don't see what putting in a horizontal gauge would "cost".  

 

I am REALLY trying to like this game, but I get more enjoyment out of Links powerstroke than I do any of the swings available in PG.  Getting to the point where I may just stop posting and give up on the game as you all seem to want me to.  :angry:  :unsure:  -_-

 

At least I can express an opinion at Links Corner and LSPN  :angry:  :(

I honestly do not care if you play this game or give up on it.  My point was that it's time to quit moaning about JNPG not having a horizontal meter or your PowerStroke swing because it's been made crystal clear that neither of those is going to happen. 


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#26 Greensboronclion

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 08:44 PM

To all who play this way my props to you as it would be a tough way to play but it is not indicative to how real golf is played.   In real golf its 2016 and we all have a handheld device of some sort that gives us distance and the Pro's use in practice so their caddies get the right distance so there is nobody in the world that still plays without knowing a distance and lets face it even if you don't have a device all courses have makers with distance on them.  IRL I can look in my bag and see 9I or 3W and you have to be able to know that so that is not real.  Also IRL you don't have a wind speed indicator but you can feel it and have a sense of what you are dealing with and unless they put a fan on my PC to simulate this how do you tell.  To me this sounds like great fun for a challenge to try this and what the heck I probably will but lets face it that this is not how real golf is played and I say go to lets say Blackwolf and turn everything off and set the stimp to 14 and tell me shooting 125 would be fun.  This is a great game but like any video game there are limits to what can be achieved and that wont change.  But again I will try it and report my round back but don't look for me joining and tour like it.



#27 Skunky

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 08:59 PM

hey ted ,gave BARE a try and i must say i enjoyed it very much.i play RTM, pro level ,played carrouc loch,breezy,stimp 14,and shot a respectable 82.thanks for bringing this topic up,its quiet interesting.cheers!


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#28 Stephen Sullivan

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 09:00 PM

We know... we know.  This game won't ever have PowerStroke so you either need to stick with Links and give this game up or stick with JNPG and give up Links.  Not trying to be flippant but you bring up this topic in nearly every single thread and it's getting a little tiresome.

..and at no time did I actually mention powerstroke  ;)  I just said I hadn't found a swing I liked and could play with any consistency  :P

It was just your extrapolation of what I said.


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#29 Crow357

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 09:01 PM

I'm not sure that the idea of BARE is so much of adding a challenge to the game as it's adding immersion to the game.  Taking away the extraneous material that reminds you that your making some pixels move on the screen and instead, are arcing a 5 iron shot to a pin you can barely see and having it stop pin high.  The only thing I ever had with me IRL were my clubs, a scorecard and the 150 yard markers.


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#30 StoneComet

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 09:02 PM

@stonecomet

I am of a totally different opinion considering the tour pro difficulty. Imho we should play with off/off swing assists again. For me the scores are even too low. Some real courses are ripped apart by the top players. In my “perfect golf world“ it would be really hard for the top players to break par on a course like Augusta. Right now it is not. Scores are 2 to 3 strokes on average lower than on the PGA Tour. Why should we make the game even easier?

We have five difficulty levels right now - enough choice for me. Dumbing down tour pro just to make anybody to reach the highest level - and sacrificing the sim-approach in the meantime? I don't think that will help sales at all.

My take is: the devs weren't able yet to promote the game enough to lure more players in. Double up the player base and we would have way more players on the tour pro level as well.

I play a lot of sports game on medium difficulty levels and don't have a problem with that at all. We have pretty big fields in all difficulty levels at OGT. Seems to be working to me.

 

I do not have problems playing games at lower difficulties. I have some issues with Pro difficulty right now with RTSC and I'm not seeing much improvement, some but I'm still not sure if I'll make the cut.  If you make the game so to prevent the cream of the crop from scoring high in comparison to real life scoring then I believe you end up with a very minuscule amount of consumers percentage wise. I would say to the point of causing issues with a significant portion of the player base regardless of the total size of the player base. This is only because, generally (NOT MYSELF INCLUDED), the gaming populace will have some expectation of achieving or at least enjoy trying to achieve the most difficult "official" setting in the game, if for no other reason than to be considered a Tour Pro in name, if only that. The more you tighten the screws at the very top the more players are unable to even have a chance at achieving what in their minds is gaming greatness here. The result will most likely be fewer players overall.

 

I think this game has gotten some press. It is on one of the most prevalent gaming platforms, STEAM, with the word Golf in the title. Not to mention the reverse publicity we get from TGC. PP won me over from TGC as soon as they introduced controller input. Where are all the other TGC players? I don't see them flocking over here. Now that is for various reasons but for most of my friends that remain over there one of the main issues is the high difficulty of the swing at Tour Pro. The swing difficulty with RTSC generally in fact once you pass Amateur. Most of these players will not be satisfied remaining Amateurs and most of them will NOT put in the time to achieve Tour Pro. Now they could just play a lower level of difficulty but those that do do this eventually dwindle away and play the game less and less. Most of those folks are from the True Sim Tour that uses the least amount of assists to date in that game, although the swing comparisons are pointless. I'm not suggesting that Jack Nicklaus Perfect Golf emulates TGC but look at what is and is not working for them and look to see if some of it can be incorporated here.

 

I would imagine the game has captured most of the 3-click and mouse swing populace that keeps up with golf video games. I'm sure there is some more to capture, but i think most are going to be here from that demographic are already here. The larger demographic is among controller users, purists aside and a dwindling group to be sure. That demographic if TGC is any indication prefers generally to use all assists and dominate games. I do get that JNPG is a different animal so we will see how all that plays out.

 

I personally do not mind playing at lower levels so all of you veteran players will have to think this through. I'm just making some observations that I think would be in the best interest of the whole community and the health of the game and I could be wrong at that.


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#31 Buck

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 09:09 PM

@Stone:

 

It seems as though you're implying that PG can't be a successful game unless a good chunk of players are able to play at Tour Pro level.

 

I guess I would just disagree fundamentally around that point.  I don't think PP has put in the varying levels to be something you work your way through in a progression and "become a Tour Pro" but rather just to have different levels of challenge for each person to find one that works for him/her and their interests.

 

I say this based somewhat upon a conversation we had here sometime in the past (I don't recall when...I'm sure search could find it if so inclined) about the naming of the levels.  I'd suggested at one time that perhaps the levels shouldn't have names like "Pro" and "Tour Pro" for exactly the reason you're bringing up.

 

The naming is wrongly implying a progression that I don't think is intended.

 

 (perhaps I'm wrong and a Dev will correct me, but that was my takeaway from the conversation at that time about the level naming)


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#32 Crow357

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 09:30 PM

This is not directed at Stonecomet, just something he mentioned.  I struggle to understand the mindset of "I'm gonna play this game at the highest level the day I get it or I'm not playing at all and it sucks."  I mean, the very first thing I do when I get a game is find the options and make sure I'm playing on the easiest level there is.  If it's too easy, then I move up.  I mean, could you image getting Civilization V and setting it to "Insanely Hard Bastard" level and then quitting in disgust when the 1st civ you meet wipes you out over and over?  Of course not, you start on "Don't Hit Me Too Hard, mmmk?" level till you figure out what's going on.  But I know there are people that expect to play every game right out of the box on the hardest level possible.  Why, I don't know.  Heck, I've seen some guys in some multiplayer lobbies going, "Umm, it's my first time playing, anyone wanna play?"  I just shake my head.


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#33 Ted_Ball

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 09:45 PM

Lordy. What happened to this topic? Very interesting.

 

Wait till I get to work so I can spend a few uninterrupted hours replying.


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#34 Buck

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 09:54 PM

Lordy. What happened to this topic? Very interesting.

 

Wait till I get to work so I can spend a few uninterrupted hours replying.

 

lol - "Hours!!?" replying?  haha   :)



#35 Ted_Ball

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 01:21 AM

Firstly JoeBradley. I went to Golden Meadows (calm conditions, stimp 12) to sort out some BARE things and shot a 72 to your 69. Looks like a nice competitve group already. 
 
I've really enjoyed reading through these posts this morning. Minor jostling so far and no major biffo. Cool. Some very interesting issues raised here and I'd like to address the playing levels subject.
 
My level progression has gone backwards and forwards. A quick tumble from TourPro straight down to Amateur. A short, forlorn but revealing period at TourPro again recently and now back to Pro with success - ignoring BARE golf for the moment. That might make me qualified to have an opinion on levels.
 
The relevance to BARE is that, as people have pointed out, golf with no assists should be with no swing or snap aids. That would be TourPro (custom). The snap assist (I think) would be OFF. OK. Fair enough. It's going to take all my debating skills to convince people that that doesn't necessarily have to be the case.
 
I'm coming from the point of view of a RTS-M player and all my statements will be relevant to RTS-M. I want to say from the start (as BARE will be my preferred MOP) that I'm only interested in playing other RTS-M players. I don't know about RTS-C. I don't know. You will just have to deal with it.
 
I have come to the conclusion that the different levels are absolutely and fundamentally exclusive. I agree with StoneComet about level names and somewhere in the bowels of this forum I made a suggestion about the naming of the levels. Each level has a unique set of assists. To me that means each level can exist and function independently of every other level. There is no game function levelling up or grinding and each player chooses their level as a personal choice. The current naming of levels reflects the overall player base as if we are all in some sort of world where there is equality and yet each level is in effect using different equipment. To put this into perspective - if that is equality then each tournament should be an 'Open' and include each level along with their assists.
 
As assists are not equal across the levels then each level should be able to be independent and that goes for the naming convention as well. For me to choose what's known as Pro level is me saying that 'this is my golfing universe'. This is where I can shoot par if I'm lucky. Hey, I was shooting in the 70s at TourPro and could take a few strokes off with practice and discipline but I'm not prepared to play that way just yet. It's another universe.
 
Playing BARE at UniverseBobbyJones (formerly Pro) level doesn't mean a UniverseFrancesOuimet (TourPro) player couldn't join UBJ. There's also no reason why there couldn't be a UFO BARE comp. 
 
There is so much more for me to comment on in this thread. Later.


#36 Buck

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 01:38 AM

Agree with all that Ted..

 

Also, your playing on RTS-M makes all the difference in the world through my eyes.  I definitely think that RTS-C is a full notch easier/more simplistic (by the nature of its limitations in design w/ controller, etc) than RTS-M / MS.

 

I'm pretty sure I'd be playing Pro instead of Tour Pro if I were still using the Mouse to swing.


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#37 Ted_Ball

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 02:37 AM

The lack of distance info is the area where I'm mostly in the dark. We are dealing with a game that wasn't meant for BARE golf and we have to make the best use of what we have. Hopefully one day these things won't be a problem but we may as well nudge the developer thinking along in this direction for the time being.
 
The caddy gives you a club the name of which you don't know. The distance to your preferred landing spot is unavailable. This is not ideal. The distance is needed to use the club you are given to it's potential. The thing is there is no way to have that info displayed while CAU is on. There are ways to clear the fog and it's in these methods that the individual player's skills grow. By the way, there is simply no reason why a player can't make their own yardage book if it is important for them to know exact distances. 
 
On another point; G mentioned the modern golfer's use of hand-held devices for distances. To comment would make me feel like a luddite but I'll comment anyway. If you are going to be able to call up a hand-held distance indicator in JNPG in BARE competition then you may as well just leave the HUD on. Let's make it as natural as we can. Like most of us play I would imagine. Out.
 
A beautiful solution would be fairway markers on our courses. But that's the future. Meanwhile it is essential that the HUD remain off for several reasons and finding ways to judge distance remains just that - a judgement - but based on clues and, my word, visual evidence.
 
I dunno. Don't people find there is too much info? Look, cams and replays and are fun but to have exact distances, exact percentages in the rough, exact elevation and a wind speed that is an exact measurement seems to take the essence of golf away. I'm standing over a ball in BARE and I have to get that ball in the hole using only a mouse and some nouse.
 
More later.


#38 Buck

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 02:49 AM

Don't people find there is too much info? Look, cams and replays and are fun but to have exact distances, exact percentages in the rough, exact elevation and a wind speed that is an exact measurement seems to take the essence of golf away.

 

Distance info being precise I'm pretty ok with as it's highly realistic to be getting that on real courses these days.  Exact percentages in the rough and wind speed, I agree it'd be nice to have a better solution.

 

I'm not sure I like the "range" of percentage/wind concept so much as I wish that one day we'll have real NVIDIA turf to look at and judge the lie for itself.

 

To me it's virtual insanity to play PG in its current form with no info on your lie (the percentages) as the graphics do essentially nothing to help you understand your lie, which in real life of course you could simply visually analyze and understand quite a bit about.



#39 Ted_Ball

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 03:00 AM

The rough and all it's individuality among courses is a lottery at the moment. I still see and I still get annoyed that a ball trickling off the fairway will give you a 15% penalty. Bollocks. I preferred playing from the first cut with a little grass under the ball and not a tight lie on the fairway.

 

I'm still saying though that without the penalty percentage displayed you can still make a judgement based on how far the ball is off the fairway. Not ideal and certainly not realistic but you have to get that ball up there somehow and you take the good with the bad.



#40 Buck

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 03:02 AM

I still see and I still get annoyed that a ball trickling off the fairway will give you a 15% penalty. Bollocks. 

 

TOTALLY agree - very very frustrating






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