28 replies to this topic

[worrybirdie]

Let's stir the pot here. I've been working with Unity for awhile now and I thought I'd start a post about what I've missed in Unity that have been in other golf design software I have used. Perhaps it would be useful for future CF iterations?

-You can't clone shapes...like tees, to use for the next tee down.

-Since you can't clone them, you can't rotate them.

-You can't click on a shape...a green, a fairway, a bunker...and smooth it or otherwise manipulate it. Everything is done with brushes, which is great for some things, but not for others. For many functions the brush mode is primitive at best.

-You can't draw an area then drop it or raise it a certain amount. Or smooth it. In some programs you could put an inner circle to be the flat top/bottom.

These are just a few things that occur to me after a long session with Unity. Feel free to chime in with more suggestions. This forum could use the intercourse.

P.S. Honestly I think the devs might be able to use these kinds of suggestions.

Oh...btw...you can't easily use LIDAR data (and Front Page Sports Golf's editor could).

[Kablammo11]

You seem to not fully understand yet where Unity ends and CF begins. They are two different entities. If you have issues with Unity, please take them up with Unity, not with PP: Wrong address, return to sender.

 

I agree about copy-pasting and rotating meshes. That is something CF should be able to manage. This is hardly new, though: Legions of designers, including me, have voiced this demand - and many more -  for over 3 years. The Devs know.

[Mike Jones]

I could post a long list of things that CF and can do that other programs could not but I know that would not please some people 

 

I don't see the point of cloning an identical tee shape when it takes all of two seconds to actually draw a unique one. Seriously unless you want to create all your tees at exactly the same dimensions and shapes what would be the point anyways.

 

Rotating shapes - probably will make it into a future version of CF - good point.

 

There are many programs capable of converting lidar and other elevation data to heightmap format used by pretty much all games these days. There is no global standard for elevation data formats so I highly doubt you will see a golf design program with the import options of something like Global Mapper anytime soon.  I wasn't aware that FPS had a lidar import option as lidar was not available at that time it was produced.

 

Painting textures and elevations is much faster and I dare say more accurate once learned than other types of elevation tools. I have used all the different golf design software over the last decade an a half and nothing comes close to the speed an accuracy we can get in CF using the unity elevations tools. APCD was very accurate but necessitated the manual movement of individual vertices and so took a long time to do and only a few where ever able to make their course elevations look natural using that method. Drawing two shapes to elevate an area was clumsy at best and was used by Sierra and Custom play but was eventually abandoned.

 

BTW it's entirely possible to tweak CF shapes by moving control points not sure what you mean when you say everything is done with a brush- that's simply not the case. The layers library has a multitude of options for advanced users to create different blends and bunker lips, not to mention the one click pot bunker tool. It really does not get much simpler than that especially considering the great results it produces.

 

Smoothing shapes doesn't make sense when you can simply smooth an entire area at any opacity and thus avoid the problematic edges between smoothed shapes when done the old fashioned way.

 

I'm open to new ideas but just because someone is used to an older software and wants the new software to work the same way does not make the old ways better - far from it infact.

[johnmeyer]

Being able to clone and resize an identical shape would be handy when adding areas of semi rough around fairways and tee boxes I guess.

[chrismess13]

I agree with everything Mike has said except, cloning shapes. For the reason the OP stated and for certain types of elevation work like bunkers for example. I may want an identical inner shape that I can flatten or reduce the steepness of compared to the identical outer shape.

[worrybirdie]

Thanks for all the great responses! My posting was designed to prompt debate, and not just to blow off steam(no pun intended ).

The cloning function (with resize) is the most important function mentioned. It's a great time saver for tees (with rotate function...sorry Mike it does make life easier), fairways (to create fringe, and multiple rough surrounds), greens, water, and bunkers(for surrounds). You'd still be able to get in and customize vertices if you don't want them to look to perfect.

As for the paintbrush vs. drawing a shape and lowering/raising/smoothing there are situations where one or the other is better. Mike I'm positive you are far better with the paintbrush then I am, though I will get better with practice, but even with great care its easy to overdig a bunker, overraise a tee or green, etc. Certainly you can Ctl-Z it and try again, but the alternate method of drawing a shape (or cloning one), then putting in a value to raise or lower it is easier (though not as artistic or challenging). And Mike the two shape function that you mentioned was also used by TW (and I thought it was very effective for certain purposes).

BTW, FPS did have an "import heightmap" function, which worked (I used it to design Bethpage Black). I do not know where the data came from, or whether it was as accurate as current LIDAR data.

And K11, as I said earlier, this was an effort to stimulate conversation. I don't know what you and others have told the developers over the past 3 years. I know that issues are revisited on this forum frequently (and deservedly so). As for the difference between Unity and CF, I am aware of it. CF is a way to make Unity more useful for designing courses. I look forward to CF making Unity even better at it.

Once again, let me thank you for your responses, and reassure you that my OP is only designed to promote open discussion. The PP forum community is by far the best I've ever been a member of.

[M Rose]

I'd like to see texture mapping or rotation, like planar mapping in APCD. So if I had mowing stripes I could point them in any direction on the 360 degree compass.

I know Unity doesn't allow it but maybe spline shapes could somehow.

[clubcaptain]

I could post a long list of things that CF and can do that other programs could not but I know that would not please some people 

 

I don't see the point of cloning an identical tee shape when it takes all of two seconds to actually draw a unique one. Seriously unless you want to create all your tees at exactly the same dimensions and shapes what would be the point anyways.

 

Rotating shapes - probably will make it into a future version of CF - good point.

 

There are many programs capable of converting lidar and other elevation data to heightmap format used by pretty much all games these days. There is no global standard for elevation data formats so I highly doubt you will see a golf design program with the import options of something like Global Mapper anytime soon.  I wasn't aware that FPS had a lidar import option as lidar was not available at that time it was produced.

 

Painting textures and elevations is much faster and I dare say more accurate once learned than other types of elevation tools. I have used all the different golf design software over the last decade an a half and nothing comes close to the speed an accuracy we can get in CF using the unity elevations tools. APCD was very accurate but necessitated the manual movement of individual vertices and so took a long time to do and only a few where ever able to make their course elevations look natural using that method. Drawing two shapes to elevate an area was clumsy at best and was used by Sierra and Custom play but was eventually abandoned.

 

BTW it's entirely possible to tweak CF shapes by moving control points not sure what you mean when you say everything is done with a brush- that's simply not the case. The layers library has a multitude of options for advanced users to create different blends and bunker lips, not to mention the one click pot bunker tool. It really does not get much simpler than that especially considering the great results it produces.

 

Smoothing shapes doesn't make sense when you can simply smooth an entire area at any opacity and thus avoid the problematic edges between smoothed shapes when done the old fashioned way.

 

I'm open to new ideas but just because someone is used to an older software and wants the new software to work the same way does not make the old ways better - far from it in fact.

There's nothing wrong with having all tee boxes the same. In fact, if you look at all the user made courses it's a very common feature. You even provide a tool to draw boxes and rectangles. Why on earth would I want to have to measure all 18 tee boxes if I wanted to have a uniform look for them.

 

This does matter if there is a need for a high degree of accuracy so as not to disturb a surrounding area. The shape constrains any activity on it and serves the purpose. Granted some smoothing is usually required but the donkey work has been done and is a good time saver.

 

Bunkers are shapes that would save the most time if they could be copied and pasted. How many bunkers on a typical course ? 72 ? 80 ? It can be a real drag constantly drawing them. As you rightly say there are control points so they don't have to end up looking exactly the same and again the donkey work has been done and would save an enormous amount of time.

 

And, it's not just that someone is used to some older software - that's a put down. If we were able to save time as I have described then I don't care if the idea is 10 minutes old or 10 years old.

 

It seems as if we don't get it if  PG don't like it. Anthony whatsit at TGC was just like that. I for one won't miss him.

 

No you can't buy a red jumper at M&S - the CEO doesn't like red. Unbelievable.

[axe360]

I would like to see the,

Select fairway shape, expand it by whatever you want, then drop a different texture. Would save hours drawing a first cut around fairways, for example. You could drop a 5ft wide or whatever, first cut in seconds. Huge time saver in that dept.

 

About tees. ok, you have 5 tees that are all circular, select shape, drag to new spot, drop. Original stays as is. BOOM!

If I had to choose, I would choose the "expand shape and drop new texture" option. Hovever, I would love to be able to select any dropped shape and move it to  a new location, while not having the original move at the same time.

[chrismess13]

Added my two cents forgetting that there is a way to clone shapes. Simply click a control point in the spline you want to duplicate. Then go to the upper left of work window and click on box with the spline number. Under edit select copy then paste. Grab a control point hold down shift to move and hold down ctrl to resize. Remember all children will be duplicated too so you will need to erase them or you will get an error when you refresh the spline.

[clubcaptain]

Tried this and it worked. However, I deleted the "child" shape and the "parent shape was also deleted. Not much use that.

[axe360]

Misunderstood about the parent shapes. Continue on.

[chrismess13]

It works for me so let me elaborate and see if we can't figure out what went wrong.

By children I don't mean the original shape you are duplicating. Lets say you have a spline of rough surrounding A fw, green, and a few bunker splines. Those shapes inside the rough spline would be the children so if you duplicated the rough spline every spline contained within would also be duplicated. You can test this by grabbing a point and moving just that point you will see the other spline unmoved underneath.

For Axe I have never had that issue. Just tested this to double check and I was able to move the duplicate and drop with out losing the original. Try testing the spline by just moving one control point first just to make sure coping it worked.

[chrismess13]

Started with the middle bunker (just tried clicking duplicate instead of copy and then paste, also worked). Moved copy to left and then made another duplicate that I resized and placed to the right. I changed the texture on the two duplicates just to differentiate them.

Tried posting a pic but...  I can figure out how to copy a shape but I can't figure out how to post a screen shot!!!

[Crow357]

Use a 3rd part photo site such as photobucket and post the URL to the image.

[axe360]

I tried once, I dropped a tee box, selected the shape, moved the shape and dropped it again but the original tee box disappeared?

Are you able to do this?

[chrismess13]

Axe, try again but before you move the spline grab one control point and move it to verify that there is a spline underneath. If there is no spline underneath then it didn't copy. I have a softball game to play so I will try posting some screens when I get back later tonight. More than willing to help out but I also don't want to hijack the thread so you can always PM.

[worrybirdie]

Its funny...it seems to duplicate it, allow you to move it and resize. But is has the same spline number as the original (somehow that sounds scary), and if you try to duplicate and resize to put in an inner tee circle it gives you a scary error message, which I can't rememeber, but it won't go completely away without shutting down. Its a shame. I was getting pretty excited by the prospect of duplicating and manipulating parents and their children (sounds kind of weird doesn't it?). Maybe a programmer could find away around this problem. Way over my head.

[axe360]

Thanks Chris, but all I wanted to see in the CF is a way to drop a shape, then move that shape to another location and drop it, while keeping the first shape where it was. Then say you wanted to reuse bunkers to a certain degree, just select the already dropped one, move the shape to the next location and drop another bunker.

 

Will probably never happen though. Just like a Cart Path Tool that was Way more user friendly than EZ Roads. Oh well. I digress.

[worrybirdie]

Axe it would also be a time saver if you could either pick up the children with the parent, or pick up the parent, resize it, and change the type. For example for a tee, pick up the copy of the surrounding rough, move it, copy it, shrink it, set it to tee fringe, then do the same for the tee. I believe TW had this feature. Oh well...if wishes were fishes...maybe someday.