75 replies to this topic

[Trath]

Are all the Speedtree packages grotesque to you K11, even those that cost over a $100?

[Kablammo11]

Most are. Not only a question of money btw, but of tri count cap as well: If you want superb trees, you can't afford them performance-wise either. 

 

These considerations apart, my Speedtree disenchantment is ike a broken spell. At the outset they looked okay - then I had a go on them in the Speedtree Modeller. Big mistake! Now I don't see them as trees anymore, just as clusters of nodes of trunks, branches and leaves. Knowing by what criteria they are assembled, and how they are made, and how truly piss-poor that tree modeller is, well, that killed the illusion of seeing a tree (which was flimsy to begin with) and instead made me see them as blurry monstrosities of meshes and textures. And staring at their LOD 2 and 3 versions in there, that truly destroyed something inside of me: I lost my childish make-believe innocence and can't bring myself to afford them the benefit of the doubt any more. They just suck.

 

Regarding money: I have sworn to not buy anything from the Unity asset store or any other 3rd-party provider and insist on making every bit of my courses myself, including 3D models, textures, plant design and audio loops. Because these are the most important bits, the ones that are truly unique and also the ones where I am free to add my own touch. Only this way, at least so I feel, I can create something. If I just bought some stuff, that would not be creation, that would be sampling. I would not play an instrument any more, I would just be arranging bits and pretending I was in charge.

 

So: Paying some unknown dimwit or dirtball company, who think their work is somehow marketable, is not at all compatible with my calling as a designer. Total DIY is the house rule. 

The only exception I was forced to make to this rule was registering and paying for the Speedtree Unity Modeller.  I'm very sorry I gave in and did that.

[axe360]

To get this thread back on track, I just went and had a look at some Speedtree models... one never knows, beauty can sometimes occur in the most unlikely of places. Alas, no hope: honestly, the sight of these sad brutes almost made me retch. Doesn't help that in my distant youth I dabbed in landscape painting and created many (inadequate) drafts of trees and bushes, accruing a healthy respect for the wonderful, intricate forms and shapes of them - and a deep loathing for facile, uninspired approximation.

Too bad, I did feel a course design tingling as of late, potentially building up into a course creation semi, but that short glimpse turned me limp within seconds. 

 

Ahh Mr. KaBoom, I see the Desert in your future?

[DPRoberts]

K11, you just need proper Tree Creation inspiration. Who better than a good friend with great hair?



I can only imagine what Bob could've done with the Speedtree modeler..

[axe360]

K11, you just need proper Tree Creation inspiration. Who better than a good friend with great hair?



I can only imagine what Bob could've done with the Speedtree modeler..

 

Ahh I loved watching that guy for some reason, I guess cause he was so soothing, not to mention and ex. artist.

[Kablammo11]

Bob always has the right brush for the job it seems. His compositions, I'm afraid, lack any mental capacity for Ma (negative space). So do many designers, including quite often me.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_(negative_space)

 

 

Bob Ross, really? Puh-lease!

[DPRoberts]

Oh, you require intellectual stimulation, maybe this?

http://www.ceskinner...-for-the-trees/

Excerpt from that webpage...

Ogden Nash (who memorably wrote: “I think that I shall never see/ A billboard lovely as a tree/ Perhaps unless the billboards fall/ I’ll never see a tree at all”).

Ha. Ogden never got to live long enough to see a billboard as the tree.

I think you could get a tree to your liking. Did you try hand drawing the trunk and branches? It's better than the procedural node dance.

I have more issue with the leaves and creating enough "Ma". Blocky leaves and branch combos are problems for vegetation billboards as well. They need some space to "breathe". I think there is some magic to be had with properly adjusted ambient occlusion as well.

None of these issues get better in Unity 5.5 other than Speedtree instancing, I believe. (Performance, not appearance improvement) Is there an alternative?

[Kablammo11]

This would warrant its own Speedtree and Philosophy thread... Thank you for the inspiration. In many respects, wise minimalism may offer a path forward. Or not. I'm ruminating about the subject and I'm not in a hurry. I'll take all the time I need over it.

 

There is no quick fix, there never is. Nor is there a cheap trick that makes all well at the wave of a wand. The usual method of using wireframe objects with materials draped over them, so entrenched as the foundation of 3D computer graphics, is fundamentally insufficient for the satisfying replication of a tree. If I had one cosmic wish for free, that would be it - that 3D could somehow free itself from this straightjacket of numerical objectification. A tall and beautiful tree always begins life as a single, small seed. Why can't designers just plant seeds and the computer grows the trees for them?

 

Would not the honest response to this be to give up on computer trees at all? Or at least to admit defeat and use symbolic cartoon trees instead? Or to revert to Links-like billboard trees in an ironic "Best we can do" retro way? Or to indeed plant huge blank, tree-sized billboards  - designating a Ma where the tree is being created by the imagination of the beholder?

What do I know? 

[Trath]

I have an inspirational design theme I think might just do the trick Oom K11. How about a post apocalyptic course where the trees are burnt out husks and or skeletal leafless charcoal coloured figures cutting a stark contrast against the grey sky.

 

One could then add bursts of colour via a few small pink/orange/red flowers and green/yellow grass for relief symbolizing the rebirth of the earth after cataclysm.

 

What do you think? It sorts out the leafage problems!

 

PS: I would prefer to see this with 3d grass tho   

[Kablammo11]

...or a landfill golf course filled with garbage, or an arctic environment, or an underground cave. Or an indoor golf course in a huge airplane hangar with utterly tasteless plastic trees. Or a toy cabinet for children where the golfers have been shrunk to one millimetre in size. Or a concept golf course in which everything but the golf course proper is whited out completely.

 

But how would any of this be something else than running away from an issue, as opposed to meeting and overcoming a challenge? Never pitch me any design ideas, please. I will never follow up on any one of them because I'm a self-absorbed dick who refuses to listen.

[Trath]

Ideas and suggestions are free, use them, ignore them, deride them, applaud them, its up to you, you wont hurt my feelings, and my ideas wont hurt yours.

[DPRoberts]

For environmental/nature ideas, found this read today to be a good one.

https://madewith.uni...uilding-forests

I would probably fall under his classification of a "leaf noodler"!

[Kablammo11]

Excellent read! Highly recommended. Thanks for sharing.

​The canopy and trunk separation is a brilliant little conundrum avoidance strategy. And the clustering paragraph is a clever implementation of ma.

 

Not sure about most of you out there (actually, I'm pretty sure about the low level of "exuberism" this generates) but to me, this is where design becomes really interesting... 

[DPRoberts]

My next build, if I live that long, I would actually prefer to spend about a month or two creating the environment and then build a course within it.

I would prefer not to design holes and elevations and then work the periphery.

Rather, much like you have happened up a wonderful course site and carve out something that makes sense to the terrain.

I really think there is something to be had with the procedural generators to help initial splat painting and planting.

Map Magic is free to try and was fun (full version minus saving). I believe the designer Denis also had a tree planting module that you specify how old you want your trees and a few other parameters and your forest "grows".

It is a tool that I think you might like but I'm not going to prompt you to do something you might enjoy. Go have a cigarette!

[Buck]

I know nothing about course design for this game, so I apologize in advance...

 

But what's the status or hope for reflective water courses in the third party realm?

 

I'm guessing it's pretty complex since we haven't seen it yet?

[DPRoberts]

Buck, I could be wrong but I think the issue is scripting. Unity 5.5 will bring a few options not supported in 5.2.3 as well.

I am using Aquas in my Kiawah but the reflections run on a script that won't compile with the CF. Or at least, I haven't figured it out. It may be DirectX 11 dependant too.

Could someone rewrite the reflection code to hide in the birds animation script?

I thought some guys already used the reflective water we have available but it's FPS intensive and lacking some transparency.

[Buck]

Interesting - Thx for that DP..

I sure hope it can become more widespread over time.  

 

It adds a TON of realism and quality to the look of the water and the transitions where terrain and water meet.

[axe360]

I know nothing about course design for this game, so I apologize in advance...

 

But what's the status or hope for reflective water courses in the third party realm?

 

I'm guessing it's pretty complex since we haven't seen it yet?

 

I just don't know the "mystery"? Here is at least an 11yr old game and may not be the gr8est but I see, rocks on the bottom, hills reflecting and even some cute little ducks.

 

 

You want some lily pads too?

 

[Buck]

@Axe:

 

I'm not quite sure what you're saying exactly?

I was just trying to better understand what might be holding back our ability to have R water on more courses in PG at this time.

[axe360]

@Axe:

 

I'm not quite sure what you're saying exactly?

I was just trying to better understand what might be holding back our ability to have R water on more courses in PG at this time.

 

I'm saying what could be so hard about it, it's been done for YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get it?