906 replies to this topic

[AnthonyKyne]

Turn about is fair play, the hottest topic on TGC's Forum is one about Perfect Golf... it has almost 686,000 page views!  One of the devs stopped in the thread to congratulate those who frequent the thread on getting it to the 500,000 mark, which I thought was pretty cool.  Those guys have a really good sense of humor, as Anthony is showing evidence of in this thread  , and you're starting to see more of that now that the shackles of Maximum Games has been taken from them.

 

Anthony, it must have been difficult to leave Lunenburg.  I found the two flyover shots of Lunenburg at the start of the TGC 2019 preview video stunning yesterday.  Even my wife remarked about how beautiful it was.  

Yeah really tough. You could actually see 3 of the houses I lived in, in the six years I spent there.

I loved every minute of it, working with HB was great and being given a chance to make a golf game, which I'd wanted to do since I was a kid was amazing. It was a very sad day, the day I left. I had to make a decision stay in Canada for ever or move back to sunny Dartford Which isn't the most appealing place - but it's where my family live

[DivotMaker]

Kudos to you AK for choosing Family first.....

[Buck]

@AnthonyKyne
 

Just out of curiosity, what's making you so interested in posting on this forum all of the sudden, and at this moment in time in particular?

I don't recall you participating here much (at least not this much) really any time in the past when TGC2 (or even TGC1) conversation was thriving..

 

Are you doing a little PR legwork, even if un-commisioned and all of your own volition, for your old crew at HB would you say?

[AnthonyKyne]

No, I just came on here yesterday to see what you guys were saying about TGC - as I have done every few months for a few years - and saw I was getting absolutely pelted. So I though i'd post.

Before it's not particularly good etiquette for me to post, as a HB employee, but now I'm not. So I can post when someone says I'm talking $h*t or say they don't like my decisions previously and back myself up. Because at the end of the day - when I don't have a game to counteract that it's just my reputation getting damaged. 

Then a few of you asked me question, so I answered them. I've always liked you guys, I've always understood the game you wanted, and I always hoped you'd understand the reasons why we weren't doing everything you wanted. So it's always an interesting discussion. So no PR - I haven't even spoken to HB about 2019, I only know as much as you guys apart from what was in the backlog of features for the coming 10 years. Which might be completely different now.

[frank70]

@Anthony

The putting is by far the best part of the gameplay.

Other than that: the game is not really about touch. It is way too much about mathematics to dial in the right distance with the loft feature.

The short game is far away from reality. Chips, pitches and flops don't need touch at all and the ball physics aren't right.

But maybe with TGC2019! :-) .

[Buck]

No, I just came on here yesterday to see what you guys were saying about TGC - as I have done every few months for a few years - and saw I was getting absolutely pelted. So I though i'd post.

 

Superb point about getting pelted and good on you for coming and speaking up in your defense.

Totally fair and makes complete sense..

[RobV]

Anthony, have you played or at least tried Perfect Golf?   If so, what are your thoughts?  

[DoGgs]

Superb point about getting pelted and good on you for coming and speaking up in your defense.

Totally fair and makes complete sense..

We were sold a lie with TGC 2 ( my opinion )  career mode was bigged up yet its a shambles, no thought to it whatsoever, and forced to play courses that would not make municipal grade.  lets not even start with multiplayer, we all know how that turned out, and frank (above) nails the short game failings.  I'm not some Johnny come lately to golf games, i have played them all since PGA 98, and invested some time in them to boot,  TGC 2 has had very little of my time as i have no desire to play it,  that tells me all i need to know.  Good luck to you Anthony, no malice on a personal level, i'm more annoyed at myself for being duped into buying TGC 2, but i suppose its consolation knowing i did not have to pay triple A price for it.

I was onboard with TGC 1 right from the early access release and watched it devolve into a straight shooting borefest.  I sat and watched all the rubbish talk about ball squirt and swing gate or whatever it was called, i never said a word, after all that the swing appeared to change into the straight shooting game it is now...why?  I got the impression that HB just caved to the ball squirt crowd and patched the swing to be easy for all and in turn ruined the game.  Sure the short game needed attention, it always did but the swing itself was never as easy in the early days as it later became.  I was then pelted for a no confidence statement i made about TGC 2,  ADX especially took great pleasure in keeping it fresh, and where is he now?  Then HB took their opportunity to ban me for life from the forum, and for what i still do not know, guess i was seen as bad for business, pathetic!

[AnthonyKyne]

@Anthony

The putting is by far the best part of the gameplay.

Other than that: the game is not really about touch. It is way too much about mathematics to dial in the right distance with the loft feature.

The short game is far away from reality. Chips, pitches and flops don't need touch at all and the ball physics aren't right.

But maybe with TGC2019! :-) .

Well that's all a matter of opinion Frank. I love the putting, it's the only game I've really found that you can feel the speed of the greens. It's creates the delight and frustration of putting in real life.

I'd agree with the rest unfortunately turning into a bit of maths play - it was something we wanted to avoid, but you die hard golf gamers to for every advantage possible and broke it down. I wanted to ish-up all the distance, so you couldn't do it. I'd also like to get rid of the scout cam and only have the map overview - but it massively alienates majority of gamers. It's funny the amount of people instantly don't like TGC because there's no powerbar.

I'm sure you'll see the guys improve the short game again, it's something that is never complete - so I'm sure you'll see another leap forward.

 

Anthony, have you played or at least tried Perfect Golf?   If so, what are your thoughts?  

Yeah I've played it quite a bit. For me -you need to really want to love it - to love it. The Front End isn't inviting and frustrating at times. So getting to the game is hard work. The presentation in the 3D world is lacking as well, which again makes it hard for people to fall in love with and find it's great personality which is it's gameplay. But as I've stated earlier - when you're a small team like the PP guys and the HB guys you have to choose where to put your time. And spending time here would reduce what you have in the gameplay side or multiplayer side.

Gameplay - I like. I feel that it's hard for the sake of being hard sometimes. I find that the lack of feedback makes it very hard to understand what I've done wrong. What I loved was that I enjoyed it the same way as I enjoyed Links. But I think it lacked the feel of TGC, but gave more variation off the tee when compared to TGC1

Just my opinion though, I'm sure if we all made a game individually we'd all make something we liked but others would want to change.

 

We were sold a lie with TGC 2 ( my opinion )  career mode was bigged up yet its a shambles, no thought to it whatsoever, and forced to play courses that would not make municipal grade.  lets not even start with multiplayer, we all know how that turned out, and frank (above) nails the short game failings.  I'm not some Johnny come lately to golf games, i have played them all since PGA 98, and invested some time in them to boot,  TGC 2 has had very little of my time as i have no desire to play it,  that tells me all i need to know.  Good luck to you Anthony, no malice on a personal level, i'm more annoyed at myself for being duped into buying TGC 2, but i suppose its consolation knowing i did not have to pay triple A price for it.

I was onboard with TGC 1 right from the early access release and watched it devolve into a straight shooting borefest.  I sat and watched all the rubbish talk about ball squirt and swing gate or whatever it was called, i never said a word, after all that the swing appeared to change into the straight shooting game it is now...why?  I got the impression that HB just caved to the ball squirt crowd and patched the swing to be easy for all and in turn ruined the game.  Sure the short game needed attention, it always did but the swing itself was never as easy in the early days as it later became.  I was then pelted for a no confidence statement i made about TGC 2,  ADX especially took great pleasure in keeping it fresh, and where is he now?  Then HB took their opportunity to ban me for life from the forum, and for what i still do not know, guess i was seen as bad for business, pathetic!

Dogs - I don't know what you were sold that was a lie for TGC2. If you look at the feature list and promotions for the game. It did what it said it would. Your expectations might have meant you were expecting something different but you weren't sold a lie.

The short game again is opinion, I felt it was an improvement of TGC1 and that's what incremental releases should be. The improvement in driving off the tee made a huge difference. It's not as easy to dial a distance. So it's maybe not what you want but it was definitely an improvement on TGC1

Your issues with the TGC1 straight driving - was something I think we all agreed on and why it was changed for TGC2. The problem we had was that the game was reviewed and bought by people for the way it played. When we tried to make it harder, they cried foul. And rightly so - if you buy something you can't have the creator changing the way it plays after you've bought it. So TGC2 was born out of that.

Didn't you get banned for condoning piracy? 

[✠ davef ✠]

banned for condoning piracy,,  

what a hoot is that a felony in the gaming world or something

no one told me about. that mean if i put one of my parrots on my shoulder and dawn an

eyepatch im not allowed to post on some forums,lolol

ROTFLMAO

[RobV]

Well, after all.. its their forum and their rules..   just like it is here. 

[✠ davef ✠]

relax Rob just having a little fun.

gotta have fun here somehow as 

there's not much else to do.

speculation  gets old after a few years.

[mebby]

Well that's all a matter of opinion Frank. I love the putting, it's the only game I've really found that you can feel the speed of the greens. It's creates the delight and frustration of putting in real life.

I'd agree with the rest unfortunately turning into a bit of maths play - it was something we wanted to avoid, but you die hard golf gamers to for every advantage possible and broke it down. I wanted to ish-up all the distance, so you couldn't do it. I'd also like to get rid of the scout cam and only have the map overview - but it massively alienates majority of gamers. It's funny the amount of people instantly don't like TGC because there's no powerbar.

I'm sure you'll see the guys improve the short game again, it's something that is never complete - so I'm sure you'll see another leap forward.

 

Yeah I've played it quite a bit. For me -you need to really want to love it - to love it. The Front End isn't inviting and frustrating at times. So getting to the game is hard work. The presentation in the 3D world is lacking as well, which again makes it hard for people to fall in love with and find it's great personality which is it's gameplay. But as I've stated earlier - when you're a small team like the PP guys and the HB guys you have to choose where to put your time. And spending time here would reduce what you have in the gameplay side or multiplayer side.

Gameplay - I like. I feel that it's hard for the sake of being hard sometimes. I find that the lack of feedback makes it very hard to understand what I've done wrong. What I loved was that I enjoyed it the same way as I enjoyed Links. But I think it lacked the feel of TGC, but gave more variation off the tee when compared to TGC1

Just my opinion though, I'm sure if we all made a game individually we'd all make something we liked but others would want to change.

 

Dogs - I don't know what you were sold that was a lie for TGC2. If you look at the feature list and promotions for the game. It did what it said it would. Your expectations might have meant you were expecting something different but you weren't sold a lie.

The short game again is opinion, I felt it was an improvement of TGC1 and that's what incremental releases should be. The improvement in driving off the tee made a huge difference. It's not as easy to dial a distance. So it's maybe not what you want but it was definitely an improvement on TGC1

Your issues with the TGC1 straight driving - was something I think we all agreed on and why it was changed for TGC2. The problem we had was that the game was reviewed and bought by people for the way it played. When we tried to make it harder, they cried foul. And rightly so - if you buy something you can't have the creator changing the way it plays after you've bought it. So TGC2 was born out of that.

Didn't you get banned for condoning piracy? 

Good post AK.  What's always interesting for me is to hear you say that you want a lot of the same things that myself and others want from the game yet you are concerned with alienating a lot of the fanbase.  I completely understand your point - often times many of the things that people like myself and Frank and Divot want are not what the masses want.  So we are typically in the minority.  I understand and accept that.  But the solution to this problem is SO easy - difficulty levels.  I know your position on that and I guess I can understand that your desire to have one difficulty level for everyone is more important to you than delivering some of the more advanced/sim features... but my view is the complete opposite, hence the frustration that I often voice.

 

Good comments on JNPG as well.  I don't feel like it's difficult for the sake of being difficult but I could see how some might feel that way.  And one of the things I love about JNPG is that you don't get any swing feedback (other than seeing what happens to your ball flight) and it's actually how I play TGC2.  In TGC2 I turn off swing feedback and distance feedback and play based purely on what I see and feel.  What I find is that, just like in real golf, I can be in a groove for several holes and then I might start losing my swing a bit and I have to concentrate to get it back.  Without the feedback I'm not always 100% sure if my tempo was off or if my swing path was off or some combination.  It's this ambiguity that makes the game fun for me.  TGC2's swing mechanic was a massive step up from TGC1 in every way possible.  I'm hoping to see the same sort of step up in many areas with TGC 2019.

[DivotMaker]

Good post AK.  What's always interesting for me is to hear you say that you want a lot of the same things that myself and others want from the game yet you are concerned with alienating a lot of the fanbase.  I completely understand your point - often times many of the things that people like myself and Frank and Divot want are not what the masses want.  So we are typically in the minority.  I understand and accept that.  But the solution to this problem is SO easy - difficulty levels.  I know your position on that and I guess I can understand that your desire to have one difficulty level for everyone is more important to you than delivering some of the more advanced/sim features... but my view is the complete opposite, hence the frustration that I often voice.

 

Good comments on JNPG as well.  I don't feel like it's difficult for the sake of being difficult but I could see how some might feel that way.  And one of the things I love about JNPG is that you don't get any swing feedback (other than seeing what happens to your ball flight) and it's actually how I play TGC2.  In TGC2 I turn off swing feedback and distance feedback and play based purely on what I see and feel.  What I find is that, just like in real golf, I can be in a groove for several holes and then I might start losing my swing a bit and I have to concentrate to get it back.  Without the feedback I'm not always 100% sure if my tempo was off or if my swing path was off or some combination.  It's this ambiguity that makes the game fun for me.  TGC2's swing mechanic was a massive step up from TGC1 in every way possible.  I'm hoping to see the same sort of step up in many areas with TGC 2019.

Gameplay sliders that allow a user to customize how HE/SHE wants to play the game THEIR WAY.

It works for most other successful sports game franchises and I have no reason to think it would not work with Golf.

[mebby]

Gameplay sliders that allow a user to customize how HE/SHE wants to play the game THEIR WAY.

It works for most other successful sports game franchises and I have no reason to think it would not work with Golf.

The problem with sliders in my experience is when it comes to online play.  What happens when you play online?  Do the sliders go back to default or does the host set of sliders get forced onto the person joining or do you allow both to use their own?  If you allow both to use your own then the playing field isn't level.

This is why I prefer preset difficulty levels.  

[AnthonyKyne]

Gameplay sliders that allow a user to customize how HE/SHE wants to play the game THEIR WAY.

It works for most other successful sports game franchises and I have no reason to think it would not work with Golf.

The problem I have with it - and something you know very well - is that look at the PGA games. They had a great game, but tried to please everyone. What happened was that with all the options no one played the game the same. You'd constantly see people saying it was too easy - and I'd always see you posting they were playing with the wrong settings.

Most gamer's these days are lazy - this includes myself - we boot up a game and give it minutes to impress us. So as soon as they don't have an experience tuned to their liking it's back for a refund. Tiger 14 is a great example of trying to impress everyone and when you don't have an EA budget you'll fail spectacularly.

I want gamers to have options - customisation is key in all games. But the core gameplay needs to streamlined or you can't determine the experience. With Handicaps and courses golf lends itself to the difficulty not needing difficulty levels in the same way no one uses them in FIFA - because you play as Galway United or Real Madrid depending on how hard you want the game

[DoGgs]

Well, after all.. its their forum and their rules..   just like it is here. 

Trouble is Rob what i said about piracy was a tongue in cheek comment because there was no demo available for TGC 2, if i remember i think i said " i'll have to get it on torrent to see what it was like before i decide"  I have over 100 games in my steam library, all paid for..including TGC 1 and 2.  I had no intention of seeking it out via torrent. HB forum police just took their chance to ban me for life, i never posted anywhere apart from the PG thread at HB, so it was not like i was spamming every thread with abuse.  Many have gotten away with far worse at the HB forum without being banned, they know it and i know it.  Makes no difference to me now as their game imo is terrible and i have nothing to contribute to any thread at HB..

[RobV]

relax Rob just having a little fun.
gotta have fun here somehow as
there's not much else to do.
speculation gets old after a few years.

Yeah no worries Dave.. all good.

[DivotMaker]

The problem with sliders in my experience is when it comes to online play.  What happens when you play online?  Do the sliders go back to default or does the host set of sliders get forced onto the person joining or do you allow both to use their own?  If you allow both to use your own then the playing field isn't level.

This is why I prefer preset difficulty levels.  

 

Preset difficulty levels are what TGC2 basically has now. It is not enough for some, too much for others.

My understanding is that 80+% of users of Golf games do not play MP online. That means they play a course they like, or Career Mode or maybe play one or two Societies they like that play like they do. I think that is the majority of the market. I may be wrong.

While Golf games may be a "social experience", online play numbers are awfully low even during Tiger's hey day. 

When I say sliders, here is what I mean:

1) Solo play - User has complete slider control over how he plays his game.

2) MP Online 

a) Society Play - Users have the gameplay sliders set for them by the Admin of the Society. These are set as a minimum for everyone competing in the tournament. The one option being that if players want to keep their sliders, they can as long as those sliders represent a more challenging slider set, not an easier one.

H2H Online Play - Could either have an agreed upon set of sliders that both or all play - OR like above, have a minimum slider difficulty with the ability to play a tougher difficulty if you so choose.

c) TGC Tours and Tournament Play - Tournament director sets a minimum difficulty for tournaments, but users can choose to play a tougher difficulty. Very unlikely in a competitive environment, but it would give tournaments a different feel to them since there is variation in the difficulty of each one. Right now, all TGC2 has are 3 clubsets with some differences in challenge, but not a wide enough variety in shot outcomes and challenge for the users.

I don't think you are being "everything to everyone" by giving the user control over how he/she plays the game and what they get out of the experience.

EA failed with Tiger 14, not because they tried to be everything to everyone, but I truly believe that they did not endear themselves to their users with their changing stance on DLC courses every version and the franchise grew stale by the time '14 was released. I believe they wore out their fanbase with DLC courses. They hit a home run with '12 and the version where you could earn course DLC with coins by playing the game. The next year, they removed that popular feature. I also firmly believe if Tiger had a course architect for '12-'14, they would still be publishing console Golf game today. The fact that X1 and PS4 were already being hyped did not help Tiger 14 and I think EA waited too late to release Tiger '14. 

[DivotMaker]

The problem I have with it - and something you know very well - is that look at the PGA games. They had a great game, but tried to please everyone. What happened was that with all the options no one played the game the same. You'd constantly see people saying it was too easy - and I'd always see you posting they were playing with the wrong settings.

Most gamer's these days are lazy - this includes myself - we boot up a game and give it minutes to impress us. So as soon as they don't have an experience tuned to their liking it's back for a refund. Tiger 14 is a great example of trying to impress everyone and when you don't have an EA budget you'll fail spectacularly.

I want gamers to have options - customisation is key in all games. But the core gameplay needs to streamlined or you can't determine the experience. With Handicaps and courses golf lends itself to the difficulty not needing difficulty levels in the same way no one uses them in FIFA - because you play as Galway United or Real Madrid depending on how hard you want the game

 

I think EA failed to educate the user with the proper tutorials to help them play the game they wanted to play. Their tutorials were great, but they only focused on the casual user. They never truly addressed the user who had played their games before. They just assumed they would jump in and play and that was it. It should not be up to the Sr. Moderator to inform the user what settings he was not using to get the experience he wanted.

 

IMO, they should have broken the game into or streamlined it into two parts.

1) Arcade for the casual user or golf video gamer and

2) Simulation for the golfer wanting to play a video Golf game.

They got #1 right more often and did not even address #2 until TW14. By then it was too late. Add the DLC content and course issues and it was too late as users were tired of the same thing every year and lack of innovation in the franchise.