59 replies to this topic

[axe360]

This potentially brings up another question.

 

Would a green be passed to play by PGLS or OGT if it was created in a realistic or bumpy manner ?

 

Here's the thing, why spend all my time smoothing my greens, so someone can change them to bumpy.

[Acrilix]

When playing friendlies, I pretty much always use perfect greens but I do throw in a bumpy or realistic option from time to time.

 

In terms of the PG tournaments, I have a slightly different perspective. That is to say that if we are not able to read the true green state, then putting can be little more than pot luck rather than a test of ability. I think tournaments should be decided by the skill and ability of a player as opposed to the amount of luck a player gets, if you get my meaning.

 

The skill and ability of a player is pot luck anyway, decided primarily by the luck of what parents you have and what genes they have, so why does a little bit of luck with a random putt deviation really matter?

[axe360]

"Humps and Bumps" would be about the underlying terrain, whereas I think the green setting is more about altering the quality of the surface for that given round.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Nah, it doesn't cause if I make a bump the green is going to follow the grade. It's just that we spend a lot of time smoothing greens so when we do have little bumps/undulations, they are smooth. Then someone comes along and plays bumpy, it just makes no sense to me!

[zmax - sim]

This potentially brings up another question.

 

Would a green be passed to play by PGLS or OGT if it was created in a realistic or bumpy manner ?

 

Probably not.  We require greens to be somewhat uniform and as close to real life as possible especially with real course recreations.  

 

OGT PGA Tour only use Perfect greens settings.   I've used Realistic setting a couple times on our simulator exhibitions and nobody noticed.... lol

 

As a tour site, it's good to have these settings.

[Buck]

Nah, it doesn't cause if I make a bump the green is going to follow the grade. It's just that we spend a lot of time smoothing greens so when we do have little bumps/undulations, they are smooth. Then someone comes along and plays bumpy, it just makes no sense to me!

Did you change your reply?
Why?
You had a very nice reply just a moment ago saying you understood the difference and thanked me?


In any case, you're smoothing the terrain not the surface.
Every course in real life has these components.

Depending upon season, time of day, course maintenance, weather, etc, it's very reasonable to expect different surface quality experiences which are independent from the terrain as laid out by course creation.

Courses are not, nor should they be, a "fixed experience" and I think the green setting was added to give some variables for the player to decide on the kind of experience they'd like.

[axe360]

Yes I did but I like your last reply. Makes sense to me now. It's the surface and I guess it is kind of cool that it is changeable in that respect. Gives a more all inclusive experience. It's really not making it's own humps and bumps.

You are wise Mr. Buck.

[Buck]

You are wise Mr. Buck.

Lol. Thanks, but I don't think I'd go that far.

Honestly the fervor over this always mystified me.
The Perfect setting has always been there for those that prefer that experience anyhow.

I somewhat understood course designers worrying about their crafted experience changing, but in reality the surface setting is a variable at all courses in real life as well, save for exceptionally well maintained tournament environments.

[Pappy]

I'm not making a complaint here. I am just curious as to the nature of the setting.
 
I have asked about the standard by which realistic is measured and why the green grid does not reflect the state of the green under that setting. As I have mentioned, in real golf, you might not see everything but you will see some if not most things like pitch marks for instance and you can adjust accordingly. On the game, this is impossible which can be frustrating. It does sometimes feel like pure luck when the ball drops and I wish it didn't.

Just curious - if you saw a pitch or spike marks in your putting line how would you compensate your putting line ? Imo when the ball rolls over the indentation it can keep going straight or left or right. You're a pretty good putter if you can read putts like that! It's a throw of the dice imo and so is realistic.

[wim1234]

Lol. Thanks, but I don't think I'd go that far.

Honestly the fervor over this always mystified me.
The Perfect setting has always been there for those that prefer that experience anyhow.

I somewhat understood course designers worrying about their crafted experience changing, but in reality the surface setting is a variable at all courses in real life as well, save for exceptionally well maintained tournament environments.

i think its because some ppl dont like forces they cannot control(in a game)...and there are quite a few in the real game.

they think if i hit it well, the result shoudl be well, but that is def not the case always in real golf. one foot short can mean a wrong bump and the ball goes not where planned.

there is much more random in the real game than we have now in pg.

so i applauded the greens, especialy bumpy.

[Sliceapottomus]

every 1 has a  different view on this... bottom line is if you want perfect greens like the pro's play on week in week out  for the most part we have that.... if you want to play on bumpy municipal style un-kept greens you have that as well. my view point on this has always been if you hit a putt on a good line at the right speed you should be rewarded with a hole out. that being said  if you hit it badly you should not be rewarded with a random hole out. If you putt well, it seems you'll gravitate towards perfect greens, if you don't putt that well it seems to not matter and you'd rather get lucky to make a putt. In real life I don't play on crappy unkept greens. I will drive twice as far and pay twice the money to play on good greens that roll true. as far as the PGA goes you hear almost every week how perfect the greens are... the only times you hear about bumpy greens is when they play on that poa stuff and that's like 6 weeks out of the whole year. New rules are gonna allow for golfers to fix spike marks now so yeah if you see them you can fix them. most spike marks are a thing of the past any how because most golf courses require soft spikes. In league play we  would come across the odd foot dragger that may have left a mess in your line and we have always allowed  people to move their ball away from some one elses ignorance...

[jmk59]

Another point of view is that you can use the "realistic" and "bumpy" settings to tweak  the difficulty of some of the easier (flati-sh) greens.  Greens such as at Royal Melbourne need no such adjustments.  Some of the pins at Riviera would benefit from the realistic setting.

[JoeF]

every 1 has a  different view on this... bottom line is if you want perfect greens like the pro's play on week in week out  for the most part we have that.... if you want to play on bumpy municipal style un-kept greens you have that as well. my view point on this has always been if you hit a putt on a good line at the right speed you should be rewarded with a hole out. that being said  if you hit it badly you should not be rewarded with a random hole out. If you putt well, it seems you'll gravitate towards perfect greens, if you don't putt that well it seems to not matter and you'd rather get lucky to make a putt. In real life I don't play on crappy unkept greens. I will drive twice as far and pay twice the money to play on good greens that roll true. as far as the PGA goes you hear almost every week how perfect the greens are... the only times you hear about bumpy greens is when they play on that poa stuff and that's like 6 weeks out of the whole year. New rules are gonna allow for golfers to fix spike marks now so yeah if you see them you can fix them. most spike marks are a thing of the past any how because most golf courses require soft spikes. In league play we  would come across the odd foot dragger that may have left a mess in your line and we have always allowed  people to move their ball away from some one elses ignorance...

 

"should be" is the operative phrase here.  Yes, you should be rewarded but this is golf and we are all aware that the golf gods can be nasty s.o.b's. 

 

I always hark back to Michelson's putt for 59 at the 2013 Phoenix Open.  I have seen reverse angle footage (from behind the cup) of that putt.  He hit the putt pure and on the correct line.  It was headed for the centre of the cup.  The pace was perfect. That putt was in.  Yet just as the ball was reaching the cup (within an inch or two) you could see it suddenly veer slightly to the right and catch the lip.  Phil did everything right.  It was a perfect putt.  He deserved the reward.  It still didn't go in.  On a perfect green, such as we have in the game, that would never have happened.  In the real world, it did. 

 

There is a place for the "realistic" greens setting in JNPG for those who want the true golf sim experience. 

[Buck]

Well said Joe

[Ted_Ball]

Why isn't Joe in charge?

[Sliceapottomus]

problem with the realistic setting is it isn't realistic the same way for every 1. randomized where the exact same putt hit the exact speed and line will miss 3 or 4 inches left then the next time miss 6 inches to the right. Not saying that joe is wrong on mickleson's putt.  it caught the edge and when you bring the edge into play bad things can happen. realistic is just too variable and effects ball too much for my liking the way it works now.. Nothing any one can say will change my opinion on that... I've played the realistic settings and not missed any putts because of it but then the next round miss 6 putts because of it ... not very fair in the scope of a fair competition. might as well take top ten finishers in a tournament and flip a coin to award winner.

[Buck]

Nothing any one can say will change my opinion on that...

Well, that sort of ends the conversation then I guess - lol

Regarding the Perfect setting, I honestly think it's "too perfect", and not real life realistic in that direction.

I'm just happy they added some different settings for those of us that enjoy using them.
It definitely adds a little bit more depth to the options.

[Greensboronclion]

I like the Realistic setting but only in non tournament events and I have to agree with Slice as it just is to unpredictable for tournament play. I totally believe it will be much better in JNPG2 and at that point put into play. I have played courses that have held tour events and tour greens are almost perfect so to me it's not unrealistic to use the in tournaments. Great fun tho on those one on one matches.

[Sliceapottomus]

Well, that sort of ends the conversation then I guess - lol

Regarding the Perfect setting, I honestly think it's "too perfect", and not real life realistic in that direction.

I'm just happy they added some different settings for those of us that enjoy using them.
It definitely adds a little bit more depth to the options.

nope doesn't end the convo. just my opinion that some will agree with and some wont.

[Pappy]

problem with the realistic setting is it isn't realistic the same way for every 1. randomized where the exact same putt hit the exact speed and line will miss 3 or 4 inches left then the next time miss 6 inches to the right. Not saying that joe is wrong on mickleson's putt.  it caught the edge and when you bring the edge into play bad things can happen. realistic is just too variable and effects ball too much for my liking the way it works now.. Nothing any one can say will change my opinion on that... I've played the realistic settings and not missed any putts because of it but then the next round miss 6 putts because of it ... not very fair in the scope of a fair competition. might as well take top ten finishers in a tournament and flip a coin to award winner.

I do agree that randomness amount is a little too much tho. Cut it down about 50% or so and imo that would be a better Realistic model!

[Buck]

nope doesn't end the convo. just my opinion that some will agree with and some wont.

Sorry, I meant it sort of ends the conversation as it pertains to you in particular..

If one admits that "Nothing any one can say will change my opinion on that..." (as you did), there isn't much point in going any further on that particular topic.

Wouldn't you agree to that part at least?