50 replies to this topic

[worrybirdie]

What happened?  It showed how with just CF you could make a complete course easily. This whole area of the forum is about Unity, and just how hard is hard. Is CF going to allow us to create good courses (perhaps without all the bells and whistles as dabbling in Unity could create), as was originally stated, or are we going to have to use Unity to design any halfway decent course (and even with my limited knowledge of Unity, I know a base level editor vs. an user friendly editor. I've seen such editors in other games, and the learning curve is not only intimidating, but except for the most dedicated, impractical).

[shimonko]

What happened? People worried before they even tried making a course with CF. Others struggled doing things Terrain Forge was specifically made to save them having to go through.

 

All it takes is for a good set of tutorials to show people the 1% of Unity they need to know and they will be right to make courses similar to those by PP, as the video showed. 

 

Creating something different looking like Willow Heath is harder, but K11 had never designed a course before or knew Unity and he worked it out fine with nowhere near the help future designers will have.

 

The PP way is a good compromise between freedom and complexity. TGC did a very nice job on their editor, but the freedom just isn't there. So PP's way will be harder at first but you'll soon come to appreciate it. 

[worrybirdie]

You are very reassuring. I hope your right. I am only concerned because of the vast bulk of the posts talking about having to learn Unity, full of hand wringing on one side, and people saying "Oh it's not so bad after you get the hang of it." on the other. Granted there is much water to pass under the bridge (btw will I need Unity to do that?) before CF is released. But that doesn't keep me from worrying.

I have designed courses on Nicklaus golf and TW (and that other damn game I can't remember, I think it was Front Page Sports...it wasn't too bad but I think its gone now...they never quite finished it...and that's a cautionary tale).

[Kablammo11]

I did issue most of the warnings you worry about, worrybirdie, but I never ever said "Don't bother with it!". Au contraire: Do bother, by all means, it's well worth it! Just be aware that there are unexpected obstacles involved. Also, many people are not quite sure where Unity ends and CF begins. A lot of the "warnings" made were attempts to clarify the job sharing between the two. Neither Unity nor CF are requiring higher levels in computer wizardry - but both together at the same time can be a bit much.

 

Also, the "easy" video leapfrogs over a few not quite-so-easy bits. And there truly are things that can go wrong at any stage of the process - there are good reasons for why they go wrong, but these are not always obvious. I just have had 3 days of pure horror at the Black Swan because of one puny little detail I overlooked and that almost torpedoed the whole thing. It's resolved now. It wasn't a big deal at all and once I understood its cause, it was ridiculously simple to eliminate - yet it felt very threatening.

 

Let me sum it up thusly: If you know that computer golf course design is for you and you are willing to commit to this, then you will be okay and you should pick it up easily. 

 

shimonko, I did design plenty of courses before, in JN5 and with the APCD. I never published them, though, and kept them to myself. They now rest in digital oblivion.

[IanD]

Digital oblivion.... I've often wanted to go there myself... I have images in my head of how it looks, where paths and roads merge badly with out of aligned edges and mapping that makes an elephant playing with paint, look artistic.. The doorless buildings and unfinished windowless shapes that edge oblivion, simply hiding the inner chaos within the suburbs.

 

I'd perhaps go for the week... 10 days is likely too long..

[worrybirdie]

Kab I find your posting less than reassuring. Though I am far from a lightweight with computer programming, there are only so many hours in a day, and trying to create a fictitious course (let alone a real world one)  using a "user friendly" program as found in Nicklaus or TW can take a very long time. Adding countless more hours mastering an arcane "master program" sounds rather depressing. I'M NOT SAYING I WON"T TRY, but...you get the idea.

Hopefully the gurus at PP will make this process more accessible, not just for me, but for others more sane and with even less time than I have.

I'm also looking forward to seeing how user contributions are going to be made available to the general public. The ability to do this (through third party websites like Courseloads.com for TW) has given people the means to post both real life courses, and fantasy ones to those who want them. And there is nothing like being able to download the course that's being shown on tv so you can play along. I know that this is outside the control of PP, and more in the perview of the community. But it will be interesting to see if both the course architect program and the community are up to the test.

BTW: I think I published 2 courses for Nicklaus on whatever the internet was called back then:)

[Kablammo11]

Aw, ye ole worrywart...

(Pardon the fake familiarity)

 

There is no general human right for every world citizen to be able to create computer golf courses easily and at a whim. You can't have the undeniable power and potential of the Unity/CF package - the strongest and best I ever came across and the one that gives me so much freedom to do my thing - and then insist that it better be easy and intuitive as well.

 

 

I'm on my second serious CF project right now, and guess what: 95% of my time goes into.... course design. It may take you a few hours more than expected to attain a skill level at which you feel comfortable, compared to previous course architect apps, but once you get there, and you will, you will wonder what all the fuss was about.

Mayhap you worry too much?

[Stephen Sullivan]

The time issue is where I fall down. I still enjoy playing Links ( Powerstroke Rules!! ) and play 2 weekly tours, one fortnightly tour and a monthly tour 

I also work full time and go to the gym 3 sometimes 4 times a week to try and keep my weight down and control my asthma.

I also have lots of tv series I follow and as there are only so many hours in a day, learning 2 new bits of software is more difficult ( We don't all pick things up  that easily )

I haven't even played PG for the last 2 weeks as I am waiting for the horizontal swing 

[shimonko]

shimonko, I did design plenty of courses before, in JN5 and with the APCD. I never published them, though, and kept them to myself. They now rest in digital oblivion.

Sorry about that, I thought your layouts were very good for a first timer!

[shimonko]

Kab I find your posting less than reassuring. Though I am far from a lightweight with computer programming, there are only so many hours in a day, and trying to create a fictitious course (let alone a real world one)  using a "user friendly" program as found in Nicklaus or TW can take a very long time. Adding countless more hours mastering an arcane "master program" sounds rather depressing. I'M NOT SAYING I WON"T TRY, but...you get the idea.
Hopefully the gurus at PP will make this process more accessible, not just for me, but for others more sane and with even less time than I have.

You're still going to need good time to make a course. 18 times anything is a lot of work. Sculpting a terrain is learnt very quickly but sculpting 200 acres takes a lot of time. You've got 200-300 shapes of bunkers, tees, fairways,... you need to draw and fine tune point by point. 18 tees you need to place for each set of tees you want to support, 18 pins for each difficulty level you want to support, shot points you need to place, hundreds of trees and grasses to plant, rough areas to paint.

I don't believe CF is going to bring course design to the masses like TGC has done - but that's because of time involved rather than the complexity.

[Stephen Sullivan]

I don't believe CF is going to bring course design to the masses like TGC has done - but that's because of time involved rather than the complexity.

It certainly looks more complex to learn than APCD.

[NoPutt]

CF will certainly be much less complex than APCD,

No seam-blending (that in itself will save many frustrating hours/weeks)

No mapping every texture

No extruding (that I have seen)

No hundreds of verts to move for a two-tierd green or simple bunker (pot bunkers unknown)

No saving the whole course every 15-20 mins.

No dreaded check box of death

And I'm sure many other time saving features (isn't that the whole point?)

[Stephen Sullivan]

I must be odd as I enjoyed extruding, seam blending and mapping 

[NoPutt]

There will be plenty of mapping,extruding,blending, to

design and build all the accessories that go into a 3D course.

Clubhouse, walls, ball-washers, boulders,signs,yardage markers,

O.B. markers, bridges,steps, fencing, the list goes on.

[M Rose]

I had sworn off Unity myself. I think with anything there is fear and loathing among what is unfamiliar.

NoPutt's two short videos were an enormous help for me in getting past that wall.

I'm still finding my way... right now it kind of feels like Microsoft Paint with grass textures. But I think the speed with which we can create courses will be much faster than APCD once the CF tools become available. Chomping at the bit!

Seam blending in APCD can literally take weeks. Any model that eliminates this tedious and time consuming task has to be an improvement.

I beta tested the original APCD back in 1999 and I've never found anything as frustrating as that was.

[M Rose]

I do like the extrusion method. That's one thing I do miss having right now.

[worrybirdie]

I still think that PP's goal should be to make their course architect as easy as possible. Sure, have options to do more difficult things. This back and forth about "How hard is hard", though entertaining, isn't what my original post was about.

[IanD]

They've yet to really 'go for broke' regarding making things easy. You can imagine what suggestions have been put forward regarding 'why can't we do it like this' etc... and the point regarding extrusions is valid, but not necessarily something missing. You just need to think of another way to do it, and there are ways... just like using photoshop or layers, it's those little tips and methods that will make 'original' moments in courses stand out.

[Stephen Sullivan]

I probably will get round to Unity sometime this year, but unfortunately other things in my life have to take priority.

At nearly 52, my brain isn't quite as good as it was, and my physical health is having to take priority over sitting at a PC designing courses.

So anything that PP can do to make things easier will be appreciated here.

 

PS Just done a 90 minute gym session with a mix of weights and cardio ( 35 minutes of that was cardio) 

[IanD]

Stephen, I appreciate you have a busy life...! I doubt you're alone in that... and naturally priorities change every week. What may benefit you, is when and once you are able to get into Unity... alot of the help and tutorials/experience will be available for you and everyone else too.

 

There is no rush in life... you should know that by now, with your experience