210 replies to this topic

[Crusher]

It is a fact that 3Clickers cannot hit a ball as long and as straight at Motion Swingers at Pro and Tour Pro settings.  Every original player of PG knows the end-goal for the developers is to equalize results at Pro and Tour Pro for players who are perfectionists and can master their swing types. Tweaks will come and both swings, though apples and oranges, will result in great shots from anywhere the course IF their swing skills are super accurate.

 

This is what I admire about the developers (among other things). They are determined to equal the playing field for 3C and MS.  Still the best two swing methods ever created for simulated golf on a PC.  I personally believe this will happen before the game is RTM.

[mebby]

Crusher, on 07 Mar 2016 - 4:35 PM, said:

It is a fact that 3Clickers cannot hit a ball as long and as straight at Motion Swingers at Pro and Tour Pro.  I believe the devs will square things away and make both swing types have equal consistency/opportunities to drive the ball far and straight. This has been mentioned several times and everyone knows that the ultimate goal of PG Developers is to make each swing have equal results by having a fair and accurate impact on the ball from any area on the course.

 

This is what I admire about the developers (among other things). They are determined to equal the playing field and I personally believe that it will happen before the game is RTM.

Interesting.  I was not aware of this.  Just to make sure I understand correctly - you are saying that a 122% perfectly struck shot with 3C doesn't travel as far as an equivalent shot on MS on Pro and Tour Pro level?  How can this even be?  Aren't both input systems using the same base physics model?  Seems like they would both yield the exact same result.

 

I'm not implying that you aren't speaking the truth... just shocked that this is the case!

[sandybunker]

I tend to stop at 100% as exceeding it only exasperates the spin, and given that I rarely hit it bang on the six o'clock it's a risk I don't want to take for a few extra yards. I do notice on multiplayer I'm regularly out drove so either other people must consistently take that extra risk or they are gaining yards because of the straight shots they pull off

[frank70]

Golden Bear, on 07 Mar 2016 - 3:28 PM, said:

You have been told by more than Dennis and I that you should not try to compare real life scoring stats to that in a video game but did continue with all the novels on stats tracking etc.  

Why shouldn't i compare the numbers of the game that is called a sim by the devs with real life numbers? Because some guys told me so?

 

You can bet that the devs would love to have real life stats - if they can make it possible.

 

GB, we are both passionate about our vision of the game. We have not the same vision, but if all is said and done: This is what early access is for. To voice opinions and to voice them with arguments. You did that with your pledge to protect the multiplayer lobby. That's absolutely okay and i respect that in every form.

[mebby]

Crusher, on 07 Mar 2016 - 4:35 PM, said:

It is a fact that 3Clickers cannot hit a ball as long and as straight at Motion Swingers at Pro and Tour Pro settings.  Every original player of PG knows the end-goal for the developers is to equalize results at Pro and Tour Pro for players who are perfectionists and can master their swing types. Tweaks will come and both swings, though apples and oranges, will result in great shots from anywhere the course IF their swing skills are super accurate.

 

This is what I admire about the developers (among other things). They are determined to equal the playing field for 3C and MS.  Still the best two swing methods ever created for simulated golf on a PC.  I personally believe this will happen before the game is RTM.

So I just did some testing and... well, I didn't find this to be the case.  I will say, however that I'm not good enough to perfectly replicate like-for-like shots between multiple swing types so maybe my testing can't be conclusive.

 

Are the devs aware of this issue?  Is it indeed a fact or is just speculation?  My testing (although not perfect) seemed to indicate that distance wise... all swing types are roughly equal if you hit the shot close to perfect.  I couldn't test 122% shots because I'm not that good so maybe the issue only exists at the extremes??

[sirputterman]

frank70, on 07 Mar 2016 - 3:12 PM, said:

I can't see that at all. One plays without meter, with the need of a certain swing ratio - and the other has a meter (a slow one compared to other games) and hasn't to bother with a combination of rhythm, swing plane, ratio and mishits. Especially with the short game and putting 3-click will be easier by design. You want to play exactly a 60% shot? Good luck with the RTS-M. With 3-click? You see it right on the screen, when 60% is reached.

 

I can see MS and 3-click playing together with some sort of parity - but not RTS-M and 3-click.

Lol I think it is a bit naive or over exaggerated to think that a clicker can dial in perfect % or snap every time. Some days or courses run smoother then others and coming even close to either the  snap or the power you wanted is just plain luck. Other times it is not as bad so yes you do score better. Still even then I can assure you it's not dial a shot gaming.

I think even if it's not intentional this "I can't see that at all. One plays without meter, with the need of a certain swing ratio - and the other has a meter (a slow one compared to other games) and hasn't to bother with a combination of rhythm, swing plane, ratio and mishits. Especially with the short game and putting 3-click will be easier by design. You want to play exactly a 60% shot?" is where the impression comes from that "the way I play is harder or better then yours"  Sure there are differences in the swings, no question and no doubt but each one has it's own strengths and weakness and that in my opinion is a good thing. Think putting is a walk in the park on 3 click? Lol in this game and in TW I have missed 2ft putts simply by not hitting the snap. The short putts are the hardest I find simply because of how fast you have to start the swing, set the power, and hit the snap. 

As I said this is what is bad about these types of discussions as even if you didn't mean to make it sound like 3 click is child's play you have to admit where the interpretation of what I pointed out may make a few people get a tad upset. 

I'm a long time 3clicker but with the new control swings available I am really trying to get into RTSC not because it is better or harder or whatever but simply because it is different and I wanted to try it for that reason alone. Now having said that I would still play a clicker any day even if I was using RTSC or I may even switch back to 3 click for that game it would depend on whatever I felt like playing at the given moment.

I guess what I'm trying to say is and to quote a line by Jack Nicholson from the movie Mars attack`s ``Why can`t we all just try and get along`` ( stupid but funny movie at the same time )  

[JoeF]

Crusher, on 07 Mar 2016 - 4:35 PM, said:

It is a fact that 3Clickers cannot hit a ball as long and as straight at Motion Swingers at Pro and Tour Pro settings.  Every original player of PG knows the end-goal for the developers is to equalize results at Pro and Tour Pro for players who are perfectionists and can master their swing types. Tweaks will come and both swings, though apples and oranges, will result in great shots from anywhere the course IF their swing skills are super accurate.

 

This is what I admire about the developers (among other things). They are determined to equal the playing field for 3C and MS.  Still the best two swing methods ever created for simulated golf on a PC.  I personally believe this will happen before the game is RTM.

 

In 3C and MS a properly struck driver at 122% will go the same distance.  Distance losses at Pro or Tour Pro would be due to hitting a less than perfect shot for both shot types.  It should be noted that in 3C it is possible to hit a shot at 132% power while in MS it is capped at 122% and results in an extra 8-10 yards for the 3C'er that can putt it off.  

[mebby]

JoeF, on 07 Mar 2016 - 6:52 PM, said:

In 3C and MS a properly struck driver at 122% will go the same distance.  Distance losses at Pro or Tour Pro would be due to hitting a less than perfect shot for both shot types.  It should be noted that in 3C it is possible to hit a shot at 132% power while in MS it is capped at 122% and results in an extra 8-10 yards for the 3C'er that can putt it off.  

Thanks for the clarification.  My biggest pet peeve is when someone states something explicitly as a fact when it's not.  5 minutes on the range told me this wasn't fact.

[AwYea]

Especially after what Crusher mentioned, i experienced the same thing in RTSC-TP, couldn't hit past %99, but very easy, too easy to hit straight.

 

It's seems simple now there only needs to be 2 groups for competitive play: MS & RTSM - 3C & RTSC. 

When it comes to a possible divide after that due to difficulty is with RTS-M-TP seems to play a good 10 to 13 shots harder than RTS-M-P, where as with MS prior to update only played about 5 shots difference between MS-P & MS-TP. If the new MS-TP plays this much harder also, no problem.

[frank70]

sirputterman, on 07 Mar 2016 - 6:45 PM, said:

Lol I think it is a bit naive or over exaggerated to think that a clicker can dial in perfect % or snap every time. Some days or courses run smoother then others and coming even close to either the  snap or the power you wanted is just plain luck. Other times it is not as bad so yes you do score better. Still even then I can assure you it's not dial a shot gaming.

I think even if it's not intentional this "I can't see that at all. One plays without meter, with the need of a certain swing ratio - and the other has a meter (a slow one compared to other games) and hasn't to bother with a combination of rhythm, swing plane, ratio and mishits. Especially with the short game and putting 3-click will be easier by design. You want to play exactly a 60% shot?" is where the impression comes from that "the way I play is harder or better then yours"  Sure there are differences in the swings, no question and no doubt but each one has it's own strengths and weakness and that in my opinion is a good thing. Think putting is a walk in the park on 3 click? Lol in this game and in TW I have missed 2ft putts simply by not hitting the snap. The short putts are the hardest I find simply because of how fast you have to start the swing, set the power, and hit the snap. 

As I said this is what is bad about these types of discussions as even if you didn't mean to make it sound like 3 click is child's play you have to admit where the interpretation of what I pointed out may make a few people get a tad upset. 

I'm a long time 3clicker but with the new control swings available I am really trying to get into RTSC not because it is better or harder or whatever but simply because it is different and I wanted to try it for that reason alone. Now having said that I would still play a clicker any day even if I was using RTSC or I may even switch back to 3 click for that game it would depend on whatever I felt like playing at the given moment.

I guess what I'm trying to say is and to quote a line by Jack Nicholson from the movie Mars attack`s ``Why can`t we all just try and get along`` ( stupid but funny movie at the same time )  

No, 3-click isn't a walk in the park at all. But it is easier when you see a swing meter compared to RTS. Easier, not easy. And on partial shots hitting the snap line is easier than changin your whole arm motion and your rhythm imho.

 

And after the changes to Tour Pro in the last patch a simple look at the leaderboards at OGT is enough. The best non-clicker was 9th and the number one of the Tour, SJude, was 13th and he was 17 strokes back of the lead. Before the patch he won tournaments by 10 strokes margin.

 

And it isn't easy by any means to balance out the difficulties of the different swing mechanics. One thing is clear to me: A meter is a huge advantage by design (this applies to MS as well). It isn't a big deal anyway. Since i have switched from MS to RTS-M i don't really look at the leaderboard - i look how may score compares to other players with the same swing mechanic.

 

If the player base sometime down the road is big enough a separation by different swing mechanics would be good. Then these discussions about difficulty can end.

[sirputterman]

AwYea, on 07 Mar 2016 - 7:19 PM, said:

Especially after what Crusher mentioned, i experienced the same thing in RTSC-TP, couldn't hit past %99, but very easy, too easy to hit straight.

 

It's seems simple now there only needs to be 2 groups for competitive play: MS & RTSM - 3C & RTSC. 

When it comes to a possible divide after that due to difficulty is with RTS-M-TP seems to play a good 10 to 13 shots harder than RTS-M-P, where as with MS prior to update only played about 5 shots difference between MS-P & MS-TP. If the new MS-TP plays this much harder also, no problem.

Not quite following your logic pairing 3 click and RTSM I mean RTMS RTSC would seem to be a more logical grouping simply as neither use a meter . MS and 3 click do use a meter so wouldn't it make more sense to group them together?

[Golden Bear]

JoeF, on 07 Mar 2016 - 6:52 PM, said:

In 3C and MS a properly struck driver at 122% will go the same distance.  Distance losses at Pro or Tour Pro would be due to hitting a less than perfect shot for both shot types.  It should be noted that in 3C it is possible to hit a shot at 132% power while in MS it is capped at 122% and results in an extra 8-10 yards for the 3C'er that can putt it off.  

I have tried to replicate this supposed 132% power on the range.  It is a fallacy.

[DennisHarris]

mebby, on 07 Mar 2016 - 04:11 AM, said:

I've been nothing but civil and open in this discussion, listening to the views that oppose mine so I'm not sure where you are coming off calling me aggressive.

The point I was making regarding your post is that I assume you are making assumptions about "the 15%" or "the 85%" and if not... Explain why you feel that 85% of the population agree with your view.

There's no need to get so excited. You seem far more excited about defending your position than the rest of us who are simply having an open discussion.

My bottom line is that I can't understand how ADDING options ends up taking anything away from anyone. Just repeat that sentence out loud.

My assumptions (though they are assumptions) are based on conversations with people I meet or know..  They all agree with what I am saying.  PG is a great game. I also never said options were a bad thing.  

I am not excited,  simply defending my position.  We all (15% and 85%) are in this together.  What changes are made at the very top trickle down and affect everyone down the line.      So all I am saying is the community as a whole needs to be given consideration not just a limited number of folks at the top. PG's Swing options are great.   All swing types have an advantage or disadvantage against another swing type.  So what is ..... is!  This is a game for goodness sake.    

[AwYea]

sirputterman, on 07 Mar 2016 - 8:52 PM, said:

Not quite following your logic pairing 3 click and RTSM I mean RTMS RTSC would seem to be a more logical grouping simply as neither use a meter . MS and 3 click do use a meter so wouldn't it make more sense to group them together?

I'm not pairing 3C & RTSM. I'm pairing 3C & RTSC because neither of these use the tempo of the actual swing (D plane theory) like RTSM and MS. Comparing the meter from MS to 3C is apples in oranges because of swing design difference between 3C and MS already mentioned.

[mebby]

DennisHarris, on 07 Mar 2016 - 9:29 PM, said:

My assumptions (though they are assumptions) are based on conversations with people I meet or know..  They all agree with what I am saying.  PG is a great game. I also never said options were a bad thing.  

I am not excited,  simply defending my position.  We all (15% and 85%) are in this together.  What changes are made at the very top trickle down and affect everyone down the line.      So all I am saying is the community as a whole needs to be given consideration not just a limited number of folks at the top. PG's Swing options are great.   All swing types have an advantage or disadvantage against another swing type.  So what is ..... is!  This is a game for goodness sake.    

I guess my point is that you have no way of knowing whether the people you have talked to truly represent 85% (or let's just say a "majority" so we aren't focused on an exact figure) of the player base.  It's simply your best view based on your interactions.  It doesn't change anything it just makes it your personal view just like I have my own personal views.  But to imply that I somehow represent a small fraction of the population and you somehow represent the majority of the population is an awfully big assumption.

 

And I agree that we all have a vested interest in making this the best golf game around - no arguing there.  I just don't understand how limiting options works towards that goal.  I also don't understand how adding options takes anything away from anyone.  In fact - I see it completely the other way around.  Forcing people to play by one standard is limiting.

[sirputterman]

..

[sirputterman]

AwYea, on 07 Mar 2016 - 9:39 PM, said:

I'm not pairing 3C & RTSM. I'm pairing 3C & RTSC because neither of these use the tempo of the actual swing (D plane theory) like RTSM and MS. Comparing the meter from MS to 3C is apples in oranges because of swing design difference between 3C and MS already mentioned.

Sorry I meant RTSC and 3click again one has a meter the other doesn't MS has a meter RTMS doesn't see where I'm going with this?

[AwYea]

Put as simple as possible. You're missing out on the total game design by playing 3C or RTS-C.

 

The game is ultimately designed for MS & RTS-M. It's what separates it from any other golf game. It's VERY in-depth and some people haven't totally figured this out yet.

 

Comparing the TGC game play mechanics to PG is like comparing the space shuttle to  one of them little wooden airplanes you use to get powered by a rubber band.

 

Not bashing if you have a preferred way of play and that's it, but this game was designed to be a sim and my suggestion to pair people competitively based on sim swing styles is accurate.

[mebby]

AwYea, on 07 Mar 2016 - 9:39 PM, said:

I'm not pairing 3C & RTSM. I'm pairing 3C & RTSC because neither of these use the tempo of the actual swing (D plane theory) like RTSM and MS. Comparing the meter from MS to 3C is apples in oranges because of swing design difference between 3C and MS already mentioned.

 

 

sirputterman, on 07 Mar 2016 - 9:56 PM, said:

Sorry I meant RTSC and 3 click. Again one has a meter the other doesn't. MS has a meter RTSM doesn't, see where I'm going with this?  

I can actually see both sides of this discussion.  In some ways it's fair to pair up 3C and MS because of the meter and in some ways it's not because of the swing mechanism.  

 

From my personal experience... on TP level, 3C is every bit as difficult as MS and RTSC.  RTSM is the most difficult for me on TP.  But I haven't figured out yet if this is down to personal preference or if it's truly more difficult.

[mebby]

AwYea, on 07 Mar 2016 - 9:58 PM, said:

Put as simple as possible. You're missing out on the total game design by playing 3C or RTS-C.

 

The game is ultimately designed for MS & RTS-M. It's what separates it from any other golf game. It's VERY in-depth and some people haven't totally figured this out yet.

 

Comparing the TGC game play mechanics to PG is like comparing the space shuttle to  one of them little wooden airplanes you use to get powered by a rubber band.

 

Not bashing if you have a preferred way of play and that's it, but this game was designed to be a sim and my suggestion to pair people competitively based on is sim swing styles is accurate.

Yea... I don't agree with this at all.  If your statement were true then they wouldn't have even put in the other swing mechanisms and they certainly wouldn't bother trying to make them all equal in difficulty right?

 

Yes, MS and RTSM are deeper, more complex swing mechanisms but it's not fair to see that someone is missing out on the whole game if they don't use one of those and it's certainly not fair to say that it was designed around those swings...