36 replies to this topic

[Ted_Ball]

While playing against my own recorded round at Winged Foot it occurred to me that there would be an advantage in tournaments to utilize this method.

 

I might be being a bit sly in bringing this to your attention because it does open up a debate about it's legitimacy. I'm stirring the pot. I could have said nothing and surreptitiously used this method for myself and you would be none the wiser but I'd like to know what other people think.

 

Let's face it - playing endlessly in a normal way is lonely and devoid of atmosphere in a social sense. This morning I started up my recorded round and played a few holes using Alt-Tab to simulate a match. It is a fabulous way to play in my opinion.

 

But is it legit? Can you compare it to, say, playing your tournament round against another member online which is, of course, legit? 

 

If you consider real tournaments every round is played against an opponent or opponents. You take notice of the other player's shots and where they land their ball and you also take a lot of interest in the break of their putts to 'go to school'.

 

The question is whether it is ethical to be playing against yourself in what amounts to a recorded practice round. Is it any different to playing against another individual? It's not as if you are playing two balls in the one round.

 

Nevertheless - and whatever people's opinion is - this is the way I'll be playing in my own comps as well as casually. It's so realistic and I feel as if I'm competing during my round rather than drily playing in solitude.

 

I imagine that playing against recorded rounds will be the future of JNPG (I also believe that BARE golf will be the future) and tournaments might one day be played mostly against a virtual opponent.

 

[zmax - sim]

If you had to ask, you probably already thinking it's not legit.  

 

Imo, it's not.  And neither  is playing your tour rounds with a bunch of ghost balls ala TGC.  Playing with a live opponent is a different animal.  

[Carl Lapin]

When you like to compete it's the way it should be done, playing alone it's boring, playing with an opponent it's different, each shot can put pressure in a way or in another.

I like the idea!

[Ted_Ball]

If you had to ask, you probably already thinking it's not legit.  

 

Yeah I dunno Z, I'm not sure.

 

Is it legit to play your tournament rounds against a recording from another member? I can't see why not at all. The moral dilemma for me comes about because it is yourself you are playing. If we think deeply enough we might find a reason why that method isn't such an advantage. As I said - it's not as if we are playing some sort of best ball and your round is played the same as a solo round. Once you have played your earlier round and have it recorded it's over. Is it any different to playing a practice round before your tournament round?

 

Maybe if members cared to record their rounds and made them available from a data-base of recordings it would make the whole affair much more enjoyable (and absolutely legit). That's what I'm hinting at for the future. 

[zmax - sim]

The problem I see is if its a recording that is ccontrolled by the player.  If it's recorded round (shot data) where it's controlled by the game with correct turn order, then it's  ok.

 

In TGC, you on the green and can wait and watch all the ghost balls putt and finish the hole.  That's wrong imo. 

[Ted_Ball]

Yeah, point taken.

 

I play it as per the whoever's away rule where I'll even Alt-Tab between the players till I've determined who is, in fact, away. But in official tournament play you wouldn't allow any manipulation to your advantage. I see that.

 

Informal tournaments might be another matter.

 

It remains to be seen how JNPG implements recorded rounds and whether they can be used in official tournaments.

[Armand]

I don't think there would be anything wrong with playing against yourself or others (as you've previously described), Ted.    I don't think OGT allows your play with two players from the same computer, but I'm not sure. 

 

[OFF TOPIC ... sort of]  I've been recording every round I played since for the past few weeks.  I have about 50 rounds recorded, but only 11 of them uploaded to YouTube; I could upload the others with relative ease (although the copyright of the birds chirping might raise a few flags!).  These rounds are my BARE rounds, NAP rounds and OGT rounds since about the 3rd week of July.  [/OFF TOPIC ... sort of]

[Ted_Ball]

That's cool Armand.

 

I've found that a free video player program called DivX is more practical than YouTube for playing against. For one thing, it will pause automatically when you Alt-Tab out of it. It means that it is one click (Alt-Tab) to go between your live round and the recording which makes it much more manageable and immersive. Another thing is that the DivX interface is very unobtrusive and sits very low on the screen.

 

I'm tossing around an idea of a video data base in cloud storage rather than uploading them to YouTube. It's more practical for these 'playing against recordings' applications. 

 

As I mentioned in the 'Playing a virtual dude' thread, I reduce the size of the file with Handbrake which means you could store a lot more rounds and the downloads wouldn't be so huge. The quality of the lighting washes out a bit (see the Winged Foot replay in the BARE thread) but the clarity stays pretty good and for these purposes it is fine.

 

I have to admit that my scoring was better when I did play a few holes against the recording this morning. It might have had something to do with getting more experience at Winged Foot but it was so great to bounce off the recorded dude's play. It was more motivational to concentrate a bit harder after the dude (me) sprayed an approach or whatever. I didn't play enough holes to get much advantage from seeing him putt but I'm sure there would be a couple of shots saved somewhere in the round by going to school on his putts.

 

The only real drawback is that both rounds would need to have the pins in the same spot but apparently the pin positions can be fixed before the round in future updates of the game.

[3199E5kennetharry]

I didn't know you could record a game like in Links, and then play against yourself.  If you can how is it done ? thanks

[Ted_Ball]

Check out this thread kennetharry....

 

Playing against a recorded round

[Ted_Ball]

It's not Perfect but it is has certainly got me interested. It's all manual until Perfect Parallel catches up to our imaginations.

 

If you are in to ways to practice a certain course without the solitary confinement of going out on your own then this way works a treat. Not only as a way of practice but also a way to have a nice little personal comp with yourself. I can tell you that if you do it right then it's preferable to organizing times and settings and the technical difficulties of trying to play against another real player online - unless you have a reliable partner.

 

My fevered vision sees many possibilities for legitimate competition between players and among the membership as a whole with recorded rounds. All it takes is for someone to download their round which would be made available for challengers to compete against that someone.

 

I have no idea how many JNPG golfers actually play against another person in real time but I have a feeling it's not a very big percentage of the player base or lobby games at all. Frankly. I'm bored to tears going out and starting yet another round by myself with only a few birds (or Willow Heath ducks) for company. At least Winged Foot had some dogs barking off in the housing estates and a mower droning away in the background.

 

It is the essence of golf. Whether it's a casual round or a hard-core tournament an opponent provides (for me) the motivation to actually get out there and play.  You have to ask yourself which you prefer - playing in a bubble where you never even see your taciturn caddy, or playing against another human being even if it is just your doppelganger.

 

I'm challenging anyone to offer a recorded round - and which I can provide access to my Mega account - to upload so that it's made available for people to play against. Not just BARE but any round at any level and any swing type.

[stopits here]

The problem I see is if its a recording that is ccontrolled by the player.  If it's recorded round (shot data) where it's controlled by the game with correct turn order, then it's  ok.

 

In TGC, you on the green and can wait and watch all the ghost balls putt and finish the hole.  That's wrong imo. 

Its actually nothing to do with you guys, what people do when they play this game, if they want to record themselves playing this game ITS NOTHING TO DO WITH OGT. 

[Ted_Ball]

That's true Madam here.

 

That is precisely why I don't play formal comps any more - the rigorous expectation to play by the rules. Rules that are reactionary or not. I was merely stimulating debate about this method and stirring the possum while I'm at it. After all, there is nothing to stop a person using this method as a way to play their tournament round apart from some personal principle. It can never be detected and there is no anti- (I refuse to use the C word) method to stop it. Does it matter?

[zmax - sim]

Its actually nothing to do with you guys, what people do when they play this game, if they want to record themselves playing this game ITS NOTHING TO DO WITH OGT.

And YOU will have nothing to do with OGT...ever.....lol

[Mike Jones]

I don't see a problem with this, I mean a person can play as many practice rounds as they want to prior to event to get course knowledge so really I don't see the difference.

[johnmeyer]

I think the only difference is experience gained in a practice round has to be remembered, in a videoed and played back round that experience is available to recalled and studied perfectly prior to making your stroke.

 

If its done in the manner as ted describes I can see no problem with it, and I do  see the correlation with playing against a live opponent, as like you say, its not actually any different to that, ie you can see their putt and adjust yours accordingly etc, its just a putt you made previously as opposed to one your opponent just made live.  

 

However if its done where that video can be replayed lots of times, can be studied meticulously,  approach shots view from multiple angles to check the bounce and rolls outs etc , then I can see how that can be deemed as gaining an advantage over someone who doesnt have that facility. In teds method above I dont see that as what hes saying, and so as above it would seem ok to me.

 

As with a lot of the "modified" playing methods, it currently relies (as does real life golf to be fair) on honesty and people doing things properly. Weve all played cub tournaments with guys who miraculously always find that high slice in the trees, who catches that amazing lie when in the thick stuff etc. Its never really bothered me as when I play I just play the course and what will be will be, but from a tournament organisers point of view, limiting the amount of ways guys can get what could be unfair advantages is the responsible thing to do. Whether this does give that unfair  advantage compared to playing without the recording I guess is the crux of the matter. If the organiser deems it possibly could then its then their prerogative to prohibit it.

 

As for the legitimacy of it and what it has to to with OGT, if its an OGT tournament, I would say it has everything to do with them in that they set the rules for that tournament. If those rules say its not allowed then thats that. Its then down to the individual to decide whether under those rules he wishes to compete or not.

[stopits here]

I think the only difference is experience gained in a practice round has to be remembered, in a videoed and played back round that experience is available to recalled and studied perfectly prior to making your stroke.

 

If its done in the manner as ted describes I can see no problem with it, and I do  see the correlation with playing against a live opponent, as like you say, its not actually any different to that, ie you can see their putt and adjust yours accordingly etc, its just a putt you made previously as opposed to one your opponent just made live.  

 

However if its done where that video can be replayed lots of times, can be studied meticulously,  approach shots view from multiple angles to check the bounce and rolls outs etc , then I can see how that can be deemed as gaining an advantage over someone who doesnt have that facility. In teds method above I dont see that as what hes saying, and so as above it would seem ok to me.

 

As with a lot of the "modified" playing methods, it currently relies (as does real life golf to be fair) on honesty and people doing things properly. Weve all played cub tournaments with guys who miraculously always find that high slice in the trees, who catches that amazing lie when in the thick stuff etc. Its never really bothered me as when I play I just play the course and what will be will be, but from a tournament organisers point of view, limiting the amount of ways guys can get what could be unfair advantages is the responsible thing to do. Whether this does give that unfair  advantage compared to playing without the recording I guess is the crux of the matter. If the organiser deems it possibly could then its then their prerogative to prohibit it.

 

As for the legitimacy of it and what it has to to with OGT, if its an OGT tournament, I would say it has everything to do with them in that they set the rules for that tournament. If those rules say its not allowed then thats that. Its then down to the individual to decide whether under those rules he wishes to compete or not.

OK, but how is this possible to police, not just by OGT but anyone?.

[Mike Jones]

I think the only difference is experience gained in a practice round has to be remembered, in a videoed and played back round that experience is available to recalled and studied perfectly prior to making your stroke.

 

If its done in the manner as ted describes I can see no problem with it, and I do  see the correlation with playing against a live opponent, as like you say, its not actually any different to that, ie you can see their putt and adjust yours accordingly etc, its just a putt you made previously as opposed to one your opponent just made live.  

 

However if its done where that video can be replayed lots of times, can be studied meticulously,  approach shots view from multiple angles to check the bounce and rolls outs etc , then I can see how that can be deemed as gaining an advantage over someone who doesnt have that facility. In teds method above I dont see that as what hes saying, and so as above it would seem ok to me.

 

As with a lot of the "modified" playing methods, it currently relies (as does real life golf to be fair) on honesty and people doing things properly. Weve all played cub tournaments with guys who miraculously always find that high slice in the trees, who catches that amazing lie when in the thick stuff etc. Its never really bothered me as when I play I just play the course and what will be will be, but from a tournament organisers point of view, limiting the amount of ways guys can get what could be unfair advantages is the responsible thing to do. Whether this does give that unfair  advantage compared to playing without the recording I guess is the crux of the matter. If the organiser deems it possibly could then its then their prerogative to prohibit it.

 

As for the legitimacy of it and what it has to to with OGT, if its an OGT tournament, I would say it has everything to do with them in that they set the rules for that tournament. If those rules say its not allowed then thats that. Its then down to the individual to decide whether under those rules he wishes to compete or not.

 

Having seen the guide books available to the real life tour players with yardages, and slope % on the greens, I would argue that they get at least as much information if not more than what Ted suggests and of course they usually play multiple practice rounds and take notes etc as well as seeing all the other practice shots their playing partners make too,

 

As this is a video game I think it's reasonable to do this sort of thing to speed up the learning process as after all you still need to hit the shot once you have planned it out correctly. The realistic way our physics is applied mean that small differences in the shot execution can have big differences in the end result anyway.

[RobV]

And YOU will have nothing to do with OGT...ever.....lol

For someone who runs a cool outfit like OGT, was this really necessary?  

 

Recorded rounds are a great way to play against yourself, others who have recorded and perhaps even start your own tournaments...  not a big deal. 

[StoneComet]

I think it is perfectly legitimate to play in this fashion with the caveat that the player using it is not abusing it. Perfectly fine in my mind for tournament sites to be wary of this as it is their responsibility in many ways to create the over-riding impression that all things are fair and equal.

 

Has anyone ever heard of Pure Pool. It was a pool game from a small developer that had lots of potential but ended up looking like a "cash grab" in the end. Anyway they had a thing in the game called "Player DNA" which applied a live players tendencies and created a virtual player with those tendencies. The more racks a player went through the more accurate the "DNA" player emulated the real player. Would be nice since we have AI to figure out how this is done and possibly implement it down the road.

 

However, I think Ted is onto something else here as he wants to play an opponent that does not do all that stuff that an AI player does. I mean you can play against AI and get pretty much the same effect he's looking for. When I helped run the TGCTours True Sim Tour we allowed one ghost ball and as many turn based ghosts as one could stand. This could not be policed other than possibly some API data which I was never privy to and some self policing within the community. I personally prefer live play even when it comes to competitions although realizing that is pretty unrealistic. If ever playing a recorded round became an official thing I'm sure some tournament site will allow it under certain restrictions.

 

I have no issues with Ted playing in this way, even for BARE round competitions, if it increases his enjoyment factor.