100 replies to this topic

[Hokodah]

My son who is in his 50`s and I , I`m 79, play RTSM with each other on the same computer.  We played our first round since the new update last night. Greens at 14 hard, amateur.  He shot 6 over and I  shot 11 over.  We played a second round at the new Kissing Tree ,realistic greens,13, normal.  He shot 64 and I shot 5 over.  when we finished a message appeared saying PP had detected a device to assist control or something to that effect.  I could not read it all before it disappeared.  I assume that this is something developed to detect cheating.  This is a good idea but only if it is reliable. Neither myself or my son were using anything to assist with our mouse swing.  We often shoot over par, fairly frequently shoot 5 or 6 under and on rare occasions , two or three times have shot 11 under.  We have never used any type of swing assist.  People are going to get upset if they are accused of cheating when they are not. For this to be used it must be reliable.

[SirGrassCutter]

This is also happening for me and a mate (3 clickers) and another mate who uses motion swing.

[DoGgs]

I don't see why it would happen with 3C maybe if you were playing with a MS player or any other method player, does everyone see the message even though it may only be one player with suspicious axis?  we need more info on this.

[Mike Jones]

There is no cheating detection but we can recognize when your device is less sensitive or has angle snapping turned on which some mice have by default these days.

 

I have a corsair vengeance mouse and without loading any corsair software the angle snapping on it is activated by default. I had to load the software and disable it to get a true perspective of how my mouse motion actually was without any hardware assists.

[Andrew]

There is a bug where if one of the players in a multiplayer game triggers it it will show for all players.  We will fix this in a patch...

In the mean time this is just providing guidance.  We have come across many players who did not even know that their mouse software was aligning the mouse (some were even unaware their mouse had software but it was turned on my default).  It is not a message that anyone is cheating its just that the game detected that it is possible the device being used has some sort of alignment aid.

[les1959]

just noticed if i try and stop swing i,e click the yellow button, i get a .... do not cheat . message appear

[StoneComet]

Hello,

 

I have not gotten the message as of yet. But I have noticed anti-cheat logs in the console. Example:

 

Anti-Cheat is at -3

 

Anti-Cheat is at -8

 

Anti-Cheat is at -10

 

I have not noticed any kind of unusual shanks or odd ball behavior so I hope I am avoiding the Anti-Cheat from affecting my play. I have noticed some stuttering of the game yet my frames look good. I did remove vertical sync which I had set on every frame. Still too early to say if the jitters are gone but so far so good.

 

I do not mind a good reliable anti-cheat mechanism but it would be nice to know what these numbers mean and what are the parameters being checked. For instance I use a Logitech G600 gaming mouse. I do adjust the DPI to 600 when playing the game. I am also able to adjust the polling rate which I have set at 500. After doing some research the general consensus is that anything above 500 really is either useless or could possibly be a detriment to gaming, especially FPS's. I should also note that after some time I re-enabled Enhance Pointer Precision in the Windows Mouse Settings and my speed slider (another way to affect DPI) is centered. I would like to know if any of that is out of bounds.

 

I use RTSH in the game. My scores and what videos I have posted on my YouTube channel obviously show that I do swing freehand without any edging whatsoever. I do understand that the developers do want to keep most of this under the hood so people cannot figure a bypass too easily. However, it would be nice to know what those console numbers mean and roughly how the Anti-Cheat system works.

 

Lastly, I get that this is a work in progress and after some feedback and observations it will most likely be improved and tweaked. Could the development team please give us a little information about what we should be avoiding as to mouse settings or controller types that are acceptable.

 

Sincerely,

 

SC 

[StoneComet]

There is no cheating detection but we can recognize when your device is less sensitive or has angle snapping turned on which some mice have by default these days.

 

I have a corsair vengeance mouse and without loading any corsair software the angle snapping on it is activated by default. I had to load the software and disable it to get a true perspective of how my mouse motion actually was without any hardware assists.

 

 

There is a bug where if one of the players in a multiplayer game triggers it it will show for all players.  We will fix this in a patch...

In the mean time this is just providing guidance.  We have come across many players who did not even know that their mouse software was aligning the mouse (some were even unaware their mouse had software but it was turned on my default).  It is not a message that anyone is cheating its just that the game detected that it is possible the device being used has some sort of alignment aid.

 

Hi Andrew and Mike,

 

Since it is intended as a guide what do the console numbers mean and I'm guessing I should disable Enhanced Pointer Precision.

 

Thank You,

 

SC 

 

P.S. Any guidance you two can give so I can play the game as you intend it to be played is greatly appreciated.

[Vernon520]

Hi Andrew and Mike,

 

Since it is intended as a guide what do the console numbers mean and I'm guessing I should disable Enhanced Pointer Precision.

 

Thank You,

 

SC 

 

P.S. Any guidance you two can give so I can play the game as you intend it to be played is greatly appreciated.

I am with you all the way with your request. There have been assertions made that some controllers are more than frowned upon and are considered by those who use them as cheating.

However while information from the devs would be invaluable on this subject I would also like an opinion from OGT to clarify their position on what is and isn't acceptable to use on their tournaments.

I'm sure none of us want to cheat or want to be seen to be cheating but if we don't know what is allowed and what is not allowed then how is anybody to know?

[Mailman]

Glad this has been raised by someone else as per my comment in another thread.  For the round I had at Kissing Tree? with its fairly generous fairways, I only hit 50% FW and only 50% GIR.  Yes I know that most of the angle snapping is turned on with my mouse but I don't have a mouse that has independent x and y axis variation which some of my pals have and I know that my FW/GIR stats are worse than theirs.  Time for another mouse maybe that does not activate this message .......

[zmax - sim]

However while information from the devs would be invaluable on this subject I would also like an opinion from OGT to clarify their position on what is and isn't acceptable to use on their tournaments.

I'm sure none of us want to cheat or want to be seen to be cheating but if we don't know what is allowed and what is not allowed then how is anybody to know?

 

It's in our Tour Guidelines.   

[Vernon520]

It's in our Tour Guidelines.   

Thanks, I'll have a look.

[Vernon520]

It's in our Tour Guidelines.   

I have read the forum concerning third party controllers  over @OGT. It would seem to me that the situation is a bit of conundrum.

The question is how far does it go? 

It is basically down to a choice of equipment that people feel comfortable and happy with.

Most of the time it has nothing to do with someone trying to gain an advantage, the same way that you would not play a round of golf IRL  with a set of clubs that you didn't feel comfortable with.

At the moment I use a Speedlink XEOX and I know that it is more forgiving that a Xbox controller, that is why, although I signed up to OGT very early on, I have never played a single tour.

But to suggest that you can hit a ball straight most of the time with it is ludicrous. My FIR ave is around 70% and Gir 50-60% at TP level.

I shall say no more on the subject except 'Good Luck' with OGT and I hope you get the issue resolved.

[JoeBradley]

(Sound of ratcheting sound as lid prises off can of worms...) If someone is determined enough, they will find a way to eliminate both swing plane and heel-toe errors, and even find a way to mimic the .25 ratio by using a software adjusted one-to-one swing - even in RTS-M. Of course they would still have to make intelligent shot choices, avoid overswing, achieve a consistent 1:1 ratio (still mentally a lot easier than 1/4), and of course master the newly difficult short game and putting, but I don't see why anyone would, beyond curiosity, choose to bowdlerize half the game challenge by mechanising driving and approach shots. But of course it would take the gloss of your fine round if you suspected you were beaten only by someone employing these methods. Our equivalent of drug cheats. So anything that accurately flags these up would be a good deterrent if properly implemented. Given that swing plane can be monitored, will it also be possible to flag up improbably consistent perfect ratio swings? 

[scajjr29]

Have never seen a software company that seems so determined to label the people who purchased the game cheaters.

 

Sam

[Vernon520]

(Sound of ratcheting sound as lid prises off can of worms...) If someone is determined enough, they will find a way to eliminate both swing plane and heel-toe errors, and even find a way to mimic the .25 ratio by using a software adjusted one-to-one swing - even in RTS-M. Of course they would still have to make intelligent shot choices, avoid overswing, achieve a consistent 1:1 ratio (still mentally a lot easier than 1/4), and of course master the newly difficult short game and putting, but I don't see why anyone would, beyond curiosity, choose to bowdlerize half the game challenge by mechanising driving and approach shots. But of course it would take the gloss of your fine round if you suspected you were beaten only by someone employing these methods. Our equivalent of drug cheats. So anything that accurately flags these up would be a good deterrent if properly implemented. Given that swing plane can be monitored, will it also be possible to flag up improbably consistent perfect ratio swings? 

Can of worms is correct. The main issue is that some people can hit 90% of fairways on a consistent basis without cheating with controllers or a mouse.

How you can conclude that a person is or is not using an edging device as opposed to using pure skill is beyond me or someone using a controller that has somehow been modified, as opposed to just pure skill and practice leaves me to believe that many people who see a good or above average score are tending to assume that a person is cheating.

[JoeBradley]

Can of worms is correct. The main issue is that some people can hit 90% of fairways on a consistent basis without cheating with controllers or a mouse.

How you can conclude that a person is or is not using an edging device as opposed to using pure skill is beyond me or someone using a controller has somehow been modified  as opposed to just pure skill and practice leaves me to believe that many people who see a good or above average score are tending to assume that a person is cheating.

Just to be clear, I'm quite content that the great scores we see in tournaments week on week are legit. Occasionally (rarely) I've even hit the swing groove myself and made a score up with the best, so I know it can be done. I'm just pointing out that the ratio safeguard, which is such an excellent feature, is also not immune to manipulation and perhaps it would desirable to protect its integrity in some way. How that could be achieved I have no idea, but I think it would be a welcome extra safeguard if it could be added unobtrusively.

[Vernon520]

Just to be clear, I'm quite content that the great scores we see in tournaments week on week are legit. Occasionally (rarely) I've even hit the swing groove myself and made a score up with the best, so I know it can be done. I'm just pointing out that the ratio safeguard, which is such an excellent feature, is also not immune to manipulation and perhaps it would desirable to protect its integrity in some way. How that could be achieved I have no idea, but I think it would be a welcome extra safeguard if it could be added unobtrusively.

When I said, 'How can you conclude' I was referring to anyone and not you as an individual. I am sure that most people accept that some players are better than others.

But an assertion was made to me that because I use a Speedlink (at the moment) that I was not playing the 'game', even though, I had stated that I only play solo.

People with that sort mentality are more than likely to make accusations against anyone who they may believe is playing better than they should be or using equipment that gives them an edge.

At the end of the day PG is a game, Game = Fun and Enjoyment.

With people like that on OGT, why would I want to play the OGT Tours.

[frank70]

Just to be clear, I'm quite content that the great scores we see in tournaments week on week are legit. Occasionally (rarely) I've even hit the swing groove myself and made a score up with the best, so I know it can be done. I'm just pointing out that the ratio safeguard, which is such an excellent feature, is also not immune to manipulation and perhaps it would desirable to protect its integrity in some way. How that could be achieved I have no idea, but I think it would be a welcome extra safeguard if it could be added unobtrusively.

Protecting the ratio might be too much. Before the patch i was able to hit maybe 80% of my shots with a ratio between 0.24 and 0.26. Maybe i hit 4 or 5 shots with a perfect 0.25 ratio in a row. That is possible. Where do you draw the line? A good anti-cheat would be to survey the mishit heel/toe in combination with the swing plane. If somebody has a 0 mishit and a perfect swing plane again and again he is certainly edging. Especially the mishit is very fine-granular. No way to hit 0 again and again without help.

Considering the controllers: they obviously play differently and yes, i think for competition that is a problem. Some guys are hitting 90% fairways with the avant ball in every tournament and it's a huge advantage. The easiest thing would be to allow only stock xbox and ps4 controllers. But i don't know, if the guys at OGT want to go that far. And i don't know, if it is even possible to detect through the game or the Api which controller is in use.

[Mike Jones]

Have never seen a software company that seems so determined to label the people who purchased the game cheaters.

 

Sam

How you come to this assumption is beyond me.

 

First of all no-one is accusing anybody of anything. We can simply detect when a controller or mouse is more forgiving than the norm. The person using that device will get a message informing them of that so If they want to play the game as intended they can disable either axis adjustments or angle snapping in their controller software if it's installed. If their controller has none of these features they can carry on playing in the knowledge that the game is playing easier from them than it was designed to play. 

 

PS 'cheating'  discussions which is entirely different thing are not allowed in our forums so bear that in mind when posting.