60 replies to this topic

[Acrilix]

I have seen a lot of chat about 3d grass and mocap animations for PG2, but what about AI?

I really believe that this will be the key to whether PG2 will be more successful than JNPG has been, when it is released. The majority of gamers still do not play online multiplayer, even though the facility to do so these days is there for most players. Fewer still play local multiplayer, and so the single player experience really needs to be a strong one. There has been much talk about the addition of a career mode for PG2, but without the inclusion of AI play into this it will likely feel like all other golf game career modes of the past.... playing against a glorified spreadsheet of generated scores. With great AI though, the experience could be completely different. The feeling that you were competing against other people with distinctive skills would add so much! You wouldn't ever be playing your round alone, and would therefore be far more immersed in the competitive experience. If the AI was well done, I believe that this alone could sell the game, especially to the console crowd.

 

I think that PP are seriously overlooking the importance of AI, judging by the amount of work that has been done on the original JNPG AI. The structure is there with the adjustable sliders to create a great variety of AI competitors, but the balance when using these at present is terrible when trying to create realistic playing characteristics, and the AI's ability (or inability) to adjust to certain situations still needs a lot of work. On too many occasions the AI either plays too well or too badly... nothing demonstrates this more than the AI bunker play. I personally only ever use AI for match play or skins in JNPG, and have to have gimmes turned on as well to ensure a competitive game.

 

Great AI could be a game changer for PG2 and could enhance every aspect of the game. It could also be a game killer though if games journalists, who will most likely be playtesting the single player experience, react negatively because of poor AI. If the AI on PG2 suddenly turn sideways as they do in JNPG, then announce they are avoiding trees and proceed to hit the ball straight through a forest I can imagine what a reviewer's response is likely to be. It will definitely affect the game's final score, and ultimately that will drastically affect subsequent sales!!

[✠ davef ✠]

i find playing the recorded rounds to be much better then the AI.

it is not something i would miss at all if left out of the next edition.

[mebby]

I think I'm with Dave on this one.  One nice thing about the TGC franchise is their ghost ball functionality.  With turn-based play enabled it's pretty darn engaging and fun.  JNPG has similar functionality but it's clunky at best.

 

My comments are in response purely to AI however.  I DO agree that a really good career mode is very important.  Not critical, but important.  And I agree that having an excellent AI component to add into the mix would be even better but I don't think the absence of it will stop people from buying the game.

[Buck]

I think a way to opt in to anonymous uploading of recorded rounds might be a cool way to build up a huge database of ghost rounds for anyone to play against.

That reminds me. We have to have a way to save a recorded round/ghost ball *after* the round, not just before. I bascially gave up on Rec Rounds as they are implemented now.

It'd be cool to be able to just have a random opponent / ghost ball round at your swing type and difficulty level if you'd like one.

I think that's probably the modern version of AI to play against anyhow, or at least given the development resources of a smaller team.

[Buck]

Good post by the way, thank you...

It's refreshing to have something new to discuss that is more than our normal "fight club" around here.

[jeffield]

Acrylic is right. Good a.i. players are important. It would also be nice to file share created players same as in mlb. The show. Id say its pretty important / hand in hand with a good career mode.

[Acrilix]

I'm sure that most people on this forum will be pretty apathetic to the subject of AI players, but that is only because most of the single player users have long since lost interest with this game and left!!!

If PP only listen to the few that are around now then PG2 will be about as popular as JNPG, maybe less so!! 

[ArcadeHack]

Good AI is a must. But recorded rounds were mentioned. I have played a few in JNPG and prefer it over playing the AI. MP is my first choice followed by recorded rounds from other users with AI coming in 3rd.

[frank70]

More than half of all gamers don't play online at all. So, good AI would be a benefit and a selling point for every sports game.

 

But: Good AI has to be embedded in a good mode. In NBA2K for instance you can play in the league, managing your team, making trades and of course play the games.

 

Translating that to a golf game: Good Ai is fine, but it serves almost no purpose when it is only there for solo rounds. The PGA Tour has to be simulated in the career mode (best would be if we had at least the Web.com and the European Tour tour as well, so that you have to work your way up). The Tour should be customizable by the player: Setting up the tournaments, the courses and the prize money. The scoring of the AI you are not playing directly against on the course has to be very near to real scores and should be influenced by the playing conditions (wind,  difficulty of pin positions. And this scoring has to be customizable by the user as well. There should be a Fedex Cup and the calculation of the World Ranking.

In short: A good career mode gives you the immersion to be a Pro on the Tour. The whole setting + scores must be as close to reality as possible. And embedded there a good AI player as opponent on the course would be the icing on the cake.

 

On course: A good AI should understand the tactics and strategy of the game. It should understand how to play a dogleg off the tee (draw / fade). It should understand that with some pin position it should shape the ball to avoid trouble. It should understand that you should not shortside yourself. It should understand that it is preferrable to leave yourself uphill putts. ETC.

 

Coding that isn't easy, although it is easier as coding a team sport where 10 or more players are interacting. In golf the situation is stale: You have a point where you want to land the ball, and the AI player has to decide if he can hit it in a straight line or if he has to curve the ball to get there. The calculation of length is easy, the numbers are there. In this regard, the AI player even has to be programmed to miscalculate sometimes.

 

But: A very good, kind of thinking AI embedded in a simulation of the real Golf World would absolutely be a selling point - cause no game so far has done that with high quality (PGA 2000 was the best in that regard). But i am really sceptical, if the small dev team can pull that off in a rather short time frame. But we can hope.

[Greensboronclion]

I personally like a good AI player as to me its fun to play a match against the AI or even a skins game against another three players its one thing that I get playing TW and Rory as I can take another Pro or Fictional player and have a pretty good match and we don't have that here.  Sometimes its fun to just go play a course and its much more fun with the AI dude and I know some will say there is the lobby and you can get a live opponent but that really has never been my cup of tea as play can be slow and I like fast and when playing a live player its pretty tough to take a break.

[Goran JoeMen]

Before internet good AI players was important to me, often playing 2 players match or 4 alternate matches with real AI players in Links and JN.

But later I and everyone I knew played either recorded rounds or online games in JN6 and Links. I set up never ending recorded round tournaments with some of my fellow JN6 designers, and offline rec round tours for GBC players on the forum and that was much more fun and random than playing AI players.

If we had a good offline career in PG it would be nice to have an option to play AI players on Sunday final rounds like I did in Links though. 

[maxie]

Like Frank mentions it would be very hard to code for a small development team , i think PG are more into bringing a good online golf sim for multiplayer players.

 

The majority of gamers still do not play online multiplayer, even though the facility to do so these days is there for most players

What type of game? if you look at the likes of player unknows battlegrounds its online only and has now over 500k playing. Career mode with good A1 maybe a selling point for the consoles but with the small community playing jnpg on pc  i dont think they would care less.

[Richard]

I think that the PG2 game development plan is already well established. With a small development team I really doubt that any significant changes from what’s already on the drawing board will occur.

I still believe that the game is still a byproduct of PP’s main business plan. Definitely not gaming.

[Crusher]

I have no interest in AI players. Same was true of past golf games.  For me, practicing alone with (mulligans enabled) and hitting the same shot over and over until I get a sense of the ball's reaction to various lies and wind variations keeps me busy. Then it's off to solo play tournaments.

[shimonko]

Interested to know why people might prefer AI over real intelligence - i.e. why they don't choose to play online.

Is it the lack of someone around when you wish to play, real opponents being annoying or taking too long? Something else?

I feel a lot of effort would be needed to put into a realistic AI player that doesn't feel like a computer - and all the effort is trying to replicate what already exists.

[DoGgs]

If you want to attract newcomers then a decent career mode is must.  I have seen many posts on steam asking about career mode in PG, these people find out that it's lacking and they move on.  If the game is indeed going to console as well, then not having a career mode would be suicide for the console market.  Simultaneuos MP would of course be an attraction, the lack of that feature in PG is the main reason i rarely play MP, playing a 3 or 4 ball takes too long for me, i just don't have that time to commit in one sitting.

[✠ davef ✠]

Interested to know why people might prefer AI over real intelligence - i.e. why they don't choose to play online.

Is it the lack of someone around when you wish to play, real opponents being annoying or taking too long? Something else?

I feel a lot of effort would be needed to put into a realistic AI player that doesn't feel like a computer - and all the effort is trying to replicate what already exists.

i agree, i think a lot of folks need to try the recorded rounds, then you get a multiplayer anytime you want it

and the best part of it is you don't have to use that silly chat window.

[Acrilix]

For me, practicing alone with (mulligans enabled) and hitting the same shot over and over until I get a sense of the ball's reaction to various lies and wind variations keeps me busy.

 

Sounds like great fun. I'm sure casual players who buy PG2 can't wait to try this!!    

This type of reply shows exactly why the opinion of most people left on this forum is of little value in the development of a successful PG2, IMO.

[frank70]

The point is, that quite a few guys here are a bit older. They were lured to golf gaming by Links - and JNPG is more or less the successor. I get the feeling that those guys are satisfied by just playing a round on their own on a good looking course. Maybe they play some multiplayer here and there, maybe they play in an online tournament from time to time. Quite a few stick to 3C and have no interest in newer control methods. It seems that they don't need new modes or a better graphic engine or a deep career mode to keep having fun with the game.

Those guys are not that interested in innovation.

 

To make it clear: There is nothing wrong about that!

 

The problem is, that newer gamer generations in general don't think that that is enough. They want bells & whistles and they do want more to do in a game than just playing 18 holes.

 

JNPG is a good golf game. But if the goal is, to sell more units, it really has to have more "flesh" in it to interest a broader audience.

 

Some guys stated here in the forums, that they couldn't care less, how many copies PG2 sells. I see that totally from the opposite side: More sales provide more income, which provides the funds to further develop the game. And a bigger community just is more fun - be it playing multiplayer or in online tournaments.

[mebby]

If you want to attract newcomers then a decent career mode is must.  I have seen many posts on steam asking about career mode in PG, these people find out that it's lacking and they move on.  If the game is indeed going to console as well, then not having a career mode would be suicide for the console market.  Simultaneuos MP would of course be an attraction, the lack of that feature in PG is the main reason i rarely play MP, playing a 3 or 4 ball takes too long for me, i just don't have that time to commit in one sitting.

Agree on career mode.  But to me, career mode and AI playing companions are mostly two different topics.  I good career mode needs to happen.  Taking it to the next level and bringing in a solid AI playing companion might add a little more appeal but I think that's the sort of thing that is going to be VERY difficult to get right so why waste the time developing it?