473 replies to this topic

[shimonko]

The pessimist in me tries to read between the lines and what I'm not hearing leads me to believe it is very uncertain for those that use a sim other than TM. If you plan to build courses for JNPG I would tread carefully if using a sim other than TM. If you plan to just play the courses it might not be as big of a loss if/when they switch to TM exclusive use.

You're suggesting course designers tread carefully? I'd be advising them to hit it harder - for I was Trackman, I'd be sending out contracts and job offers to some of the top course designers here. They've had tons of experience, they know the course design software and they've shown excellent results. It would have been firmly in my mind if I was buying out PP.

PG has the biggest selection of accurate real courses of any current golf game on the market today - this is just the eastern side of the US alone, of courses which have been approved as quality renditions, and I've only added about 2/3rds of the courses so far:



That's super impressive.
 

I'd be offering to buy past creations. For Trackman can't sell or use such courses without the author's permission, regardless of what CF's T&C declare. 

This is a huge asset to the game. PC players are the next sim players who are the next TM customers. Sure only a 1-2% of us sim guys would be willing to buy a Trackman now, but Trackman could easily release a cheap simulator only launch monitor that ticks our boxes.  It would be one silly company to get rid of 20000 PC players who cost next to nothing to keep playing, and a training ground for course designers.

 

 

Now I know many here design for the love of it, avoid commercialization etc, sure - that's fine. But why would you wish them to tread carefully - they're doing what they love. Was there some other future promised to them beyond listing a course name in their forum signature? They certainly don't get too many likes of appreciation when they post about their courses.

[M Rose]

I have to admit.... I'd sure like to be able to do this professionally, if I could. I really don't have too many career prospects otherwise.... these days I'm delivering groceries to hipsters in apartments who don't tip to make ends meet.

 

Obviously Course Forge is licensed software so I get it, especially if the courses don't want to opt in either.... but it sure would be nice to use this experience I have in some capacity.

[Buck]

I have to admit.... I'd sure like to be able to do this professionally, if I could. I really don't have too many career prospects otherwise.... these days I'm delivering groceries to hipsters in apartments who don't tip to make ends meet.

 

Obviously Course Forge is licensed software so I get it, especially if the courses don't want to opt in either.... but it sure would be nice to use this experience I have in some capacity.

 

What gig is that?

Like Instacart type of thing?

[zmax - sim]

I have to admit.... I'd sure like to be able to do this professionally, if I could. I really don't have too many career prospects otherwise.... these days I'm delivering groceries to hipsters in apartments who don't tip to make ends meet.

 

Obviously Course Forge is licensed software so I get it, especially if the courses don't want to opt in either.... but it sure would be nice to use this experience I have in some capacity.

 

Mike Jones would be wise to add you to their CF team.  I'm sure they can use the help with all the newly acquired course licenses.  

[Riddler]

I have to admit.... I'd sure like to be able to do this professionally, if I could. I really don't have too many career prospects otherwise.... these days I'm delivering groceries to hipsters in apartments who don't tip to make ends meet.

 

Obviously Course Forge is licensed software so I get it, especially if the courses don't want to opt in either.... but it sure would be nice to use this experience I have in some capacity.

I would gladly pay for your courses.

[Richard]

I would gladly pay for your courses.

+1

[grumpter]

 

You're suggesting course designers tread carefully?

I didn't refer to course designers in my post. 'You' references the poster that has not yet purchased JNPG or presumably built courses. The point being if one of their main reasons for subscribing to JNPG would be to be able to design courses they should be aware of the situation. Since they are getting a SkyTrak (today?) they could potentially put a lot of effort into designing their own courses only to lose access if/when PG2 becomes a TM only product.


Why would TM start paying for something they can get for free? Maybe if they plan to start charging an arm and a leg for it which is a possibility. Otherwise they have a pretty good thing going for the price they are paying for the course building.


I don't see why they would need to get the creators permission if they continue to use a subscription based model. If they don't directly sell the courses what permission is needed?


If i was looking out for my companies bottom line and it's value added services I would think I wouldn't change things until PG2 is fully tested (including by users of competing sims) and then eventually turn it into a TM only product. Until that time they have some subscribers offsetting their costs to build PG2, a larger pool of testers and are getting quality courses built for free that they can continue to use if they continue the subscription model. For those creators without a TM sim it could be 'so long and thanks for all the {free} fish'.

[Stingreye]

EDIT: for clarity I just don’t think that TM is losing sales by allowing 3rd party launch monitors because they really aren’t competing in the home sim market. By making it an exclusive, I don’t see them picking up marketshare or home sim users because TM’s are a different buyer. We are talking Ferrari vs Honda Accord’s and Honda Civics. I also hope that Andrew and Mike would have sold their business to someone that shared their vision of both PC and sim they have had in the past.

Because the VAST majority of TM users are teaching pros and fitters that will never do sim. There might be some commercial sim places with TM’s but that is small and a different price. If it’s TM only it becomes a huge cost and likely isn’t worth it. If they keep it open, they get a great subsidy for their range product and TV product.

[zmax - sim]

Maybe I should just put this in my signature..... LMAO

 

 

PG1 will continue to be supported for the foreseeable future and we have no plans at all to 'pull the plug'. We have spent a long time and much effort in building a community here with tournaments, CourseForge and the best multiplayer available on a golf game/sim so we would like that to continue.

[Stingreye]

One thing to add, it feels Iike some are turning this into a sim vs Pc thing. I would be VERY disappointed if it went sim only. I love the fact that I can play with friends that have it on a Pc while I am on my sim. That’s a huge selling point and I believe Perfect Golf is the ONLY software offering with that option.

[Buck]

One thing to add, it feels Iike some are turning this into a sim vs Pc thing. I would be VERY disappointed if it went sim only.

 

Agreed

I hope it won't be much longer before Andrew or someone at TM can comment about the PG2 timeline and the future for the PC (non Sim) users specifically.

 

I just saw some old screenshots I'd saved of the 3d grass...

Made me want it all over again!

 

[trailblazergolf]

well from what i'm gathering from all I've been reading -- a big portion of probs seems to be lack of cash ---can't speak for all, but i'd gladly pay 5.00 for any decent real course-- and I have a feeling many others would to --for one reason --this game and devs produce exlence --much more so than other golf games--I'm desk top PC guy and no desire to change--- been that for many many yrs no intention of changing --AMEN

[Acrilix]

I just saw some old screenshots I'd saved of the 3d grass...

Made me want it all over again!

 

I like the close up look of 3D grass but that last picture of the 3 you showed just shows how bland 3D grass can look at a distance.

[Buck]

I like the close up look of 3D grass but that last picture of the 3 you showed just shows how bland 3D grass can look at a distance.

That's what I would expect.
My eyes can't see much detail in grass far off in real life either.

Plus, it has to be performant so it's a reasonable trade off.
Detail in the distance is likely scalable with resources, like other graphical features are right now.

I'm much more concerned with how it looks near my position and the ball lie, etc

[Acrilix]

That's what I would expect.
My eyes can't see much detail in grass far off in real life either.

 

It's not about seeing detail, it's about seeing variation. 3D grass just creates a video game look rather than a realistic one, that I don't enjoy as much. There are courses that this is suited to, but most courses IRL do not have uniform grass disappearing into infinity they have constant changes in both colour and texture that current 3D technology can't seem to replicate.

As I said, 3D grass looks great up close but I like to appreciate the course as a whole and the immersion it creates, not just where my golfer happens to be standing, and 2D textures currently do that better.

[Buck]

It's not about seeing detail, it's about seeing variation. 3D grass just creates a video game look rather than a realistic one, that I don't enjoy as much. There are courses that this is suited to, but most courses IRL do not have uniform grass disappearing into infinity they have constant changes in both colour and texture that current 3D technology can't seem to replicate.
As I said, 3D grass looks great up close but I like to appreciate the course as a whole and the immersion it creates, not just where my golfer happens to be standing, and 2D textures currently do that better.

Fair points. I agree. I like variation.

We are sort of debating a moot point for now.
These are old screenshots.

I fully expect a variation in the 3D grass depending upon how it's implemented by the designer.
I would also expect texture variation underneath that will allow the look to be further enhanced.

As with the current courses, designer skill and techniques will no doubt allow for a myriad of amazing results.

Mike was just showing us some test shots.
We don't really know what a PG2 implementation of the grass might actually look like.

[Arsam]

Per Mike Jones:

PG1 will continue to be supported for the foreseeable future and we have no plans at all to 'pull the plug'. We have spent a long time and much effort in building a community here with tournaments, CourseForge and the best multiplayer available on a golf game/sim so we would like that to continue.

 

My only concern is the ambiguity of the highlighted phrasing of Mike's comment.  How long is the foreseeable future?  One month, one year, five years?  We would all like JNPG to continue, but we don't always get what we want.  What we want is not necessarily what we will get.

[Buck]

Good points Arsam - It definitely was a carefully worded statement, intentionally I would imagine. 

 

I think Mike was just saying what he could say with as much certainty as he could.

Given that he's not in control of these decisions now, I guess that statement reflected the level of assurances he could personally offer at this time.

[shimonko]

I don't see why they would need to get the creators permission if they continue to use a subscription based model. If they don't directly sell the courses what permission is needed?

 

They're artistic, copyrighted works which the authors allow to be distributed or not.  

If Trackman cut off PC usage, I can't see many authors here, left gameless, being too happy to see their courses being usable only by Trackman users paying hundreds a month for the privilege.

Trackman wouldn't dare host the courses and external hosts would remove the course within hours of being requested to. It's likely the existing courses won't even work without rebuilt by the author, or if they did, not for long - so even underground distribution wouldn't survive.

[grumpter]

Perhaps but that is of little conciliation if TM would make it an exclusive TM product for sim use. The future is uncertain.