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#181 JCat04

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 04:48 PM

Now, on the other hand, I will say that for an initial release, the graphics look good. And if course designer software could be put in the hands of some of PG's more skilled designers, I wonder how much better they might be able to get courses to look compared to VG2's stock offerings? We'll only know that if PG2 comes to light and allows community course creation.

DPRoberts, your Oakmont looks awesome! Can't wait to play it!  Happy Thanksgiving to everyone in the US!

 

Regarding your comments above, does anyone else recall reading a statement from Andrew saying that they had VG2 running in a Windows environment with mouse control, and possibly even controller interface options in effect.  We know it could easily exist on a gaming PC, but the seemingly insurmountable issue is will Trackman venture that far out of their business model to accommodate it?  Right now I just can't see that happening, but I'd love to be proven wrong.


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#182 SFR

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 05:14 PM

On the trackman video:

Just looking at the video of him hitting shots into the greens.

 

Compare his trackman numbers with swing speed and smash factor and back spin numbers.

They just don't seem to match up with the PGA Tour ave. numbers.

The last swing for sure does not seem to add up being only in the 180's for carry with a swing speed of almost 100 mph.

I just don't think it is a good indoor sim option even if it were the same price as a GC2.



#183 JCat04

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 06:35 PM

On the trackman video:

Just looking at the video of him hitting shots into the greens.

 

Compare his trackman numbers with swing speed and smash factor and back spin numbers.

They just don't seem to match up with the PGA Tour ave. numbers.

The last swing for sure does not seem to add up being only in the 180's for carry with a swing speed of almost 100 mph.

I just don't think it is a good indoor sim option even if it were the same price as a GC2.

 

I don't have a background that would enable me to make a judgement on that SFR.  Isn't that something Trackman could potentially resolve, or at least improve upon through updates?  Thanks for pointing that out though...


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#184 SFR

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 07:12 PM

It is known that when they compared a GC2 to a trackman outdoors, the trackman was better showing ball flight due to following the ball with radar and able to do so with wind etc. but the GC2 was very close in ball flight with only the ball data to use to calculate ball flight as long as there was not a wind involved.

 

However indoors, then there became a bigger difference between the GC2 and trackman.  So with the GC2 not changing with how it reads indoors compared to outdoors, and the trackman not being able to follow ball flight past 20 feet or less, it then needs to depend on its numbers to produce a ball flight.  This is where the numbers in the video may be skewed like the very first shot that had backspin of over 10,000 and other shots as low as in the 4,000's.

As for realistic looking software, I would rather focus in on ball physics and being the most accurate there first and then add the bonus of great graphics if you can do it.  HD Golf has photos of the courses and is as real as you can get, but the ball flight and where the ball lands is no where near what it looked like while showing your ball flight.  You can be going right to the pin but the next screen when you putt, you are off line by 10 yds.

 

If trackman software had great physics, then what good are they if the data read is not accurate and can be off as much as what looks to be in that video.

 

A PGA Tour Avg. showed a 8 iron with 87mph club speed and 1.32 smash factor, LA of 18.1 deg. back spin of about 8000 and carry of 160 yds.

The 7 iron club speed only goes up 3 mph to 90mph with similar smash factor of 1.33, LA of 16.3 deg. back spin of 7097 and carry of 172 yds.

So for a 3 mph faster club and slight changes to the rest it gained 12 yds where in the video that last shot was almost 100 mph club speed and still only a bit over 180 carry.



#185 DPRoberts

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 07:49 PM

I don't have a background that would enable me to make a judgement on that SFR. Isn't that something Trackman could potentially resolve, or at least improve upon through updates? Thanks for pointing that out though...

There are pluses and minuses to any launch monitor system. Some are great, some are good, and some are random number generators.

A doppler based launch monitor (Trackman) will give better data with more data points. Indoors, I believe, the minimum flight they want is 10 feet but prefer 13 feet or more. Obviously, this is complex for most in home users. It will also then struggle to handle putts.

The GC2 in my opinion (GC quad probably even better) being a camera based launch monitor will give you fabulous, usable data that gives consistent play and feedback that I can relate to an outdoor game. I do not think there is a launch monitor for shots under 50 yards that can even come close. Putting is actually fairly consistent in that you can "dial" in speed control. Small horizontal deviation is obviously an issue and there are corrections made for putting. But, it is THE budget launch monitor for an indoor space.

I do not have any affliation with either company. I'm just speaking from hardware perspective and usage of both. I will say I've used GC2 much more and have in my home setup.

But, from a software perspective, I like what I'm seeing from VG2 over FSX.
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#186 JCat04

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 09:14 PM

It is known that when they compared a GC2 to a trackman outdoors, the trackman was better showing ball flight due to following the ball with radar and able to do so with wind etc. but the GC2 was very close in ball flight with only the ball data to use to calculate ball flight as long as there was not a wind involved.

 

However indoors, then there became a bigger difference between the GC2 and trackman.  So with the GC2 not changing with how it reads indoors compared to outdoors, and the trackman not being able to follow ball flight past 20 feet or less, it then needs to depend on its numbers to produce a ball flight.  This is where the numbers in the video may be skewed like the very first shot that had backspin of over 10,000 and other shots as low as in the 4,000's.

As for realistic looking software, I would rather focus in on ball physics and being the most accurate there first and then add the bonus of great graphics if you can do it.  HD Golf has photos of the courses and is as real as you can get, but the ball flight and where the ball lands is no where near what it looked like while showing your ball flight.  You can be going right to the pin but the next screen when you putt, you are off line by 10 yds.

 

If trackman software had great physics, then what good are they if the data read is not accurate and can be off as much as what looks to be in that video.

 

A PGA Tour Avg. showed a 8 iron with 87mph club speed and 1.32 smash factor, LA of 18.1 deg. back spin of about 8000 and carry of 160 yds.

The 7 iron club speed only goes up 3 mph to 90mph with similar smash factor of 1.33, LA of 16.3 deg. back spin of 7097 and carry of 172 yds.

So for a 3 mph faster club and slight changes to the rest it gained 12 yds where in the video that last shot was almost 100 mph club speed and still only a bit over 180 carry.

 

That's a lot to chew on... it's still hard to imagine that a $18,000 launch monitor couldn't replicate things a little better than that.   :huh:


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#187 JCat04

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 09:20 PM

There are pluses and minuses to any launch monitor system. Some are great, some are good, and some are random number generators.

A doppler based launch monitor (Trackman) will give better data with more data points. Indoors, I believe, the minimum flight they want is 10 feet but prefer 13 feet or more. Obviously, this is complex for most in home users. It will also then struggle to handle putts.

The GC2 in my opinion (GC quad probably even better) being a camera based launch monitor will give you fabulous, usable data that gives consistent play and feedback that I can relate to an outdoor game. I do not think there is a launch monitor for shots under 50 yards that can even come close. Putting is actually fairly consistent in that you can "dial" in speed control. Small horizontal deviation is obviously an issue and there are corrections made for putting. But, it is THE budget launch monitor for an indoor space.

I do not have any affliation with either company. I'm just speaking from hardware perspective and usage of both. I will say I've used GC2 much more and have in my home setup.

But, from a software perspective, I like what I'm seeing from VG2 over FSX.

 

Based on what you're saying, it certainly sounds like GC2 would better suite my needs, but I'd still have to add a room onto my house... it just wouldn't have to be as big as the one I'd have to add for a Trackman 4.  I'm glad you mentioned your experience with the putting on the GC2.  I was starting to get the impression that putting was something that was best skipped with launch simulators.  Then again though, I don't think they create launch simulators with the idea of replicating the nuances of putting and the short game?


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#188 Joe Habiger

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 11:37 PM

I asked the poster of the video for the specs of his machine.  He's got an Alienware 17, 16 GB RAM, i7 intel core 8750 @ 2.21 GHz.  I really wouldn't have an idea of how VG2 would perform on my system until if and when we'd ever see it come into fruition on a desktop PC.  I'm realizing now that I'm wasting my time blubbering over something I can't experience in its current form.

 

Nothing wrong with blubbering over it but we can also make the same quality if not better in our JNPG version. The newer VG2 has better options for Lighting and HDR with it being a PG1 port over to the newer Unity program. 

 

I will not give them the satisfaction of blubbering over it..lol


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#189 shimonko

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 01:26 AM

I think you'd be disappointed in Trackman & VG2, Jcat, as we've all been spoiled with JNPG and even Links before that. Community courses are a huge asset - not only quantity but quality - labors of love which no company could ever justify that amount of time, and it shows. So many game options have disappeared - understandably for their target audience. But it's lacking for us.
 

Access to a large tour with hundreds of people, more events and challenges than even a retired person could get through.  Even access to the people you love and don't on these forums - it's all part of the total experience. VG2 is relatively shallow.
 

JNPG is the cake but it's the icing that makes the combination so good and gives it longevity.
 

People with Trackmans on the FB simulator group mostly are not tinkerers. Their research is often 'What simulator should I buy?" where the local pro says Trackman because it's the only one he's heard of. They show time and time again they don't know how good simulator golf can be because, at most, they compare to the $50-$80k systems out they had a bad experience with (because they are embarrassingly bad).

How bad?

Take Golfzon - $50k+, Golf Digest simulator of the year for the last 3 years running. No colliders on trees so you'll find hazard pegs or OB around every fairway as, of course, it would be unfair to play through trees and shrubs with no colliders. 


I agree with SFR's statements - it's nice to have better graphics, but it's just one of many things and IMO, the community is pushing the graphics of JNPG ahead of VG2 anyway. There's an adage in the world of computer game development - it's mostly artist, not engine.

Projectors and impacts screen don't do graphics justice anyway. VG2 shows nice screenshots, but I don't play golf at dusk - that's actually when I stop playing. And like in racing games where I like being in the car, I don't view the course from a camera tower.

Easy to fall in love, then you start missing your wife and all the little things she did.


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#190 Arsam

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 03:20 AM

​OMG DP, it is just like being there.  You even have the  local branch of the S&T Bank on corner of the intersection.  I live about 5 miles from the course and although I have never been privileged to play there, I have walked the course during the U.S. Open and you have captured the exact essence of the course.  I have been praying for a first class rendition of Oakmont for years and it appears you are making it happen.  Thank You and the current group of great course designers for all you are doing to advance JNPG beyond all expectations.


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#191 DPRoberts

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 03:40 AM

​OMG DP, it is just like being there. You even have the local branch of the S&T Bank on corner of the intersection. I live about 5 miles from the course and although I have never been privileged to play there, I have walked the course during the U.S. Open and you have captured the exact essence of the course. I have been praying for a first class rendition of Oakmont for years and it appears you are making it happen. Thank You and the current group of great course designers for all you are doing to advance JNPG beyond all expectations.


I'll be sure to pass an early beta to you when the time comes. I'm using Google Earth to add correct buildings on the surrounding streets that are visible. Not super far along but also have that tire shop up.

It helps that YouTube has a great drone capture of every hole.
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#192 Dropzone73

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 08:19 AM

Here's something closer to complete tee to green play (the golfer has auto-putt enabled) at Silverleaf Golf Club.  The desert mountain backdrop is easily the best looking I've ever seen in ANY golf game or simulation!  I questioned the poster and he says he's only interesting in ball striking and that's why he has it in auto-putt.  I'd love to see how the full putting experience goes with this though.  What's the norm for gimmies on simulators?

 

This guy would be the straightest hitter in the PGA Tour. I didn't see about any side spin in any shot. Maybe he's just a horrible putter IRL :unsure:.  I was also wondering the score card. He played -6 with auto putting enabled, but there's -4 in the score card???

 

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#193 shimonko

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 12:28 PM

I can't think of what else it could be other than a math error.

Sidespin is showing no effect - there must be some option to ignore it, as surely spin axis is being used to calculate backspin.

I remember spin wasn't measured or even predicted in a FullSwing studio I visited about 12 years ago. I walked out. 1 year later business was bust.



#194 Arsam

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 01:22 PM

The scorecard shows 6 birdies and 1 bogey, the first three hole scores are hidden. There was probably another bogey in the first three holes to net a -4 final score.

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#195 Joe Habiger

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 04:00 PM

​OMG DP, it is just like being there.  You even have the  local branch of the S&T Bank on corner of the intersection.  I live about 5 miles from the course and although I have never been privileged to play there, I have walked the course during the U.S. Open and you have captured the exact essence of the course.  I have been praying for a first class rendition of Oakmont for years and it appears you are making it happen.  Thank You and the current group of great course designers for all you are doing to advance JNPG beyond all expectations.

 

Hopefully he doesn't take as long as Birdie to finish it..lol

 

Yeah I know, I should talk..lol, I have 5 courses I'm working on and can't seem to finish any and I get bored quick when I work on them. If I could only get myself to work on one HOLE a day additude I might be able to finish something besides that crap texture rendition of Hazeltine.


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#196 Joe Habiger

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 04:02 PM

I'll be sure to pass an early beta to you when the time comes. I'm using Google Earth to add correct buildings on the surrounding streets that are visible. Not super far along but also have that tire shop up.

It helps that YouTube has a great drone capture of every hole.

 

Same for Hazeltine and you can even walk the course in google maps. I've been there a few times but it did help.


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#197 Joe Habiger

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 04:05 PM

And if any of the Trackman designers can design a course to the degree of this i'll EAT MY ****..lol

 

No 3D grass but it's so good it doesn't even need it.

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#198 slouis

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 07:22 PM

After looking at the You Tube video and the Trackman site which has screenshots of courses I would say that there isn't a signficant leap in the graphics but the lighting is better.

Although it is only a couple of videos,  the guy using TMVG2 should be on the PGA Tour.  He hit one drive 335 yards!  The average drive on the PGA Tour is 299 yards.  In addition when he was hitting iron shots on the par 3, I didn't see one that was far off line.  Is he really that good or can you set a simulator to "hacker" level?

In my opinion, a simulator is basically a launch monitor.  It does a poor job of simulating the short game and putting.  Putting is all feel and I don't know how you can create that on a simulator.  From a number of videos I have seen on You Tube,  setting it to auto putt is quite common.  What about a shot from a greenside bunker  using a simulator.  Do you open up your clubface and your stance? 

Here in Canada, a basic Trackman simulator would cost me about $27,000 CAD.  I could play a lot rounds of real golf for that amount.

To state the obvious, a TM simulator at it's price range is a totally different market then JNPG on the pc.  TM sales of their simulator would not be impacted by releasing a JNPG2 so I am surprised that they have decided not to.  If they did I would also be willing to pay for the licensed courses they have for TM.


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#199 zmax - sim

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 07:37 PM

Chipping and putting on jnpg simulator is very good and a lot of fun when using Skytrak or GC2. Trackman has isssues with short putts. OGT Tour uses 4ft gimmes. Trackman Radar launch monitor does not measure spin axis when used in doors. It estimates it from estimated Club data plus other factors. Thats probably why most shots were straight.

#200 johnmeyer

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 09:31 PM

Couple of things just to note: regarding distances, i think im right in saying Silverleaf course is at around 2000ft ASL. I assume VG2 uses same thing as PG in that elevation of course will affect carry etc, so that might explain the increased distances seen? Also the 335 yard drive on top of the elevation was also 40ft down hill, and got quite a significant bounce. No doubt a good strike and if data to be believed ball speed up towards 170mph, which is impressive none the less but not beyond quite a high proportion of very very good amateur players, of which it appears he is/

The spin axis/shot shape thing i will agree looks suspect for sure, looking at the path and face to path data, id expect to be seeing A LOT more curvature on some of those ball flights, might be the camera mode hiding it it a bit, but think safe to assume hardware "limitations" are having an effect there for sure


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