133 replies to this topic

[Mailman]

Truth be told IRL I find it just as difficult to work out the breaks - the obvious ones are easy but the subtle ones well...

 

Interesting screen shots re the breaks and judging by eye.  I'm really no expert on reading greens au natural but I'd be looking at both shots breaking Left-to-Right.  The putt seems that way for most of the length and the chip appears to break just after the red circle.

 

Getting better resolution textures on the screens should help putting without aids for those that want it.  I have made comments re the textures (in another thread) we are currently seeing and hope they do improve considerably in the near future with the Unity upgrade.

[Buck]

Mailman, on 30 May 2015 - 9:22 PM, said:

I'm really no expert on reading greens au natural but I'd be looking at both shots breaking Left-to-Right.  The putt seems that way for most of the length 

 

A taker!  

I wish I could figure out how to capture shots "with the BLI" short of doing video, but alas you'll just have to trust me here.

 

So the putt....No break *at all* - none.  Totally straight, just slightly downhill.

 

With my eyeballs and these textures we are working with, I'd never get that read even close to correct and become UBER frustrated and not enjoy the game and stop playing.

 

No thanks.  BLI for me for now.

[Greensboronclion]

The new camera angles Andrew has mentioned will help quite a bit but the BLI will be used most so that is the direction you need to go.


I'm not sure if you're directing that at me or others? I absolutely LOVE the BLI, so I'm happy for that to be the direction of the future until such time that textures and shading allow much better reading of greens without any aids at all.




Buck what I am trying to say is that most people will use the BLI and some will use no aids but the BLI is going to be the top aid for putting and that was not directed at you or anyone else. You also stated that it should be more about the reading of the putt than the swing in putting and could not disagree more. I know people who can read a putt better than anyone around on a real course and couldn't sink a 3 footer if their life depended on it. The swing in putting every bit as important as the read and you need both to be successful at it. Look at the PGA tour and how many guys have put their belly putters away as the become illegal next season and they can't make squat. The takeaway and follow thru have to be perfect to make a putt so why should it not in the game so for that we agree to disagree. By the way one of the reasons Pro golfers don't want drug testing is not due to Steroids but due to Beta Blockers as the enable the player to keep his hands still to make more putts.

[Buck]

Greensboronclion, on 30 May 2015 - 9:52 PM, said:

The swing in putting every bit as important as the read and you need both to be successful at it. 

 

I guess I would just like an Aid setting that's independent of the difficulty of the MS on other swing types so we can fine tune it.  I agree with you that executing the swing is important, but on my setup it's so hard to hit it straight that it has become "un-fun" for me - which sucks.

 

It's WAY too sensitive for my liking on putts, but I like that aid level for my other shots.

 

Regarding swing "realism" -  there doesn't appear to be a tempo component to the putting swing right now that I can see which is odd.

[Buck]

All in all - it's a game and the goal of a PC game is to have fun (for me anyways), so I'm really in favor of lots and lots of options so we can all enjoy things how we enjoy them.  :-)

[Buck]

Re:  Putting

 

Sounds like in the U5 thread that Putting changed dramatically in the new version, so I guess we can stop bantering about it as we are now talking about the "old system" haha

[Greensboronclion]

Buck, on 30 May 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

Re:  Putting
 
Sounds like in the U5 thread that Putting changed dramatically in the new version, so I guess we can stop bantering about it as we are now talking about the "old system" haha

It should be quite different and we shall see if it's harder or more forgiving and who knows maybe more setting that people can use to tailor game to how they want. The game we see today will not be the game we see next year or down the road as this game will evolve but for an early access it is incredibly good already. Looking forward to the update.

[Ted_Ball]

When I first started playing PG I went full sim on the greens and read the breaks without the grid. There was no BLI of course. To be honest I was a bit disappointed with the textures and lighting on the greens. I expected a bit better. Nevertheless I played a lot of rounds by just reading the breaks by what I saw. What visual input I did have was quite adequate to lag the ball close from a distance. Believe it or not there was enough info to judge breaks. In your first example it does look like a left to righter ( I would have aimed about six inches left. The ball would have finished close enough for a two-putt all the same (if the speed was right)) but it is a washed out dull day and you'll have the same problem IRL.

 

I tried varying the time of day to create a shadow effect but it didn't help all that much. I thought that an exaggerated shading would have helped. Anyway, as in real life, if there was no obvious break either way I would putt straight at the hole. The problem was that it was impossible to read any break at the 3 to 4 foot distance. There was simply no graphical input and as we all know there are some brutal breaks on those short putts here. That was where the frustration came in and I gladly embraced BLI. But for long putts I thought having no assistance, apart from elevation, worked adequately. All it needed was a camera that you could move up or down - standing to squatting. Frankly BLI is too unreal and, even though I sort of like the distance flag, together I felt it was too much mechanical assistance to simulate putting.

 

The update will be extremely interesting for we fanatics and I wonder if we will have more discussions about pros and cons - no doubt we will. I think we sometimes lose sight of the fact that PP are trying to deliver a simulation of golf and do we really need so many mechanical assists that we can sink a high percentage of putts that we would make at a much lower percentage.

 

One more thing. Wind should have an effect on the path and momentum of the ball to be a true simulation.

[Buck]

Great post Teddy and an excellent point about the longer range putts vs short.

 

I'm actually with you on that.  I think I could tolerate no Assists on long putts where things are a bit more obvious, but your assessment of the extreme frustration on the really short ones would quickly get me back to the BLI no doubt (as it did you)

[Greensboronclion]

Short putts can be incredibly hard in this game as you really must use the BLI to be successful at them. When I played links I would always look at the putt before I used the BLI to see if I saw the break and make a judgement of where I thought the center of the break and how high it would be. I then would use the BLI and more times than not I was correct in my first judgement. I can live with the BLI but can't and won't use a grid as it deters the look of the game.

[JoeF]

Teddy_Ball, on 30 May 2015 - 10:26 PM, said:

One more thing. Wind should have an effect on the path and momentum of the ball to be a true simulation.

 

It does.  And very realistically as well.  At low wind speeds the effect is minor (essentially negligible) while as you go above 10 mph in wind speed the effect becomes more pronounced.  I use the follow cam when playing and you can definitely see the effect on the ball flight.  I've also noticed differences in distance when playing into or with the wind.  In gusty and windy conditions I've seen the ball climb and then really begin to slow and finally almost drop out of the sky due to the headwind.  Very realistic to my irl experience.  And the crosswind effect as you get to 15 mph and up just feels so right. 

[Ian]

JoeF, on 31 May 2015 - 12:54 AM, said:

It does.  And very realistically as well.  At low wind speeds the effect is minor (essentially negligible) while as you go above 10 mph in wind speed the effect becomes more pronounced.  I use the follow cam when playing and you can definitely see the effect on the ball flight.  I've also noticed differences in distance when playing into or with the wind.  In gusty and windy conditions I've seen the ball climb and then really begin to slow and finally almost drop out of the sky due to the headwind.  Very realistic to my irl experience.  And the crosswind effect as you get to 15 mph and up just feels so right. 

 

I think he meant the wind should effect putts?

[Ted_Ball]

Yes Ian, thank you. Wind should affect putts.

[JoeF]

Ohhh.  

[Armand]

Buck, on 30 May 2015 - 4:47 PM, said:

For those that are no aids guys, can you give me a read on this one?

http://i.imgur.com/WL3n6ji.jpg

 

I would play that about 2-3 feet outside right IRL.  In PG and since the putt is 33 feet long, I don't think it's going to kick left at the start (I think it would IRL).  So, I would probably aim 3-4 cups (about a foot or so) to the right, as I believe the ball will die left near the hole.  Please note that the line is always dependent on the speed, and I try to die the ball at the hole.   If you hit it so the putt is a couple of feet long in PG, I would play 1-2 cups outside right.

[Armand]

Buck, on 30 May 2015 - 9:24 PM, said:

So the putt....No break *at all* - none.  Totally straight, just slightly downhill.

 

Obviously, I misread it (see post above), but that wouldn't upset me in the game at all.  The only reason people want these other aids is to shoot below par - and well below par for some.

 

I completely agree that textures make a HUGE difference in being able to read putts on a 3D screen.  Mike Jones has always selected textures that (at least for me) make putting without aids a bit of a guess, except the obvious ones.  I play PG at different virtual times of day, so the lighting can either be giving some assistance or hiding it.  I think early morning or late afternoon/evenings are a bit easier than mid-day, but you have a trade off of shadows at those times - and in the shadows, it's really tough to see breaks.  This, to me, is very similar to real golf.  I don't strive to use all the aids and shoot under par - my goal is to use no aids and get under par.  No luck so far, as my best is 72 (+1) from member tees with easy pins.  I've managed 77-79 a handful of times from championship tees.

[Buck]

Armand, on 31 May 2015 - 5:49 PM, said:

I completely agree that textures make a HUGE difference in being able to read putts on a 3D screen.  

 

I don't strive to use all the aids and shoot under par - my goal is to use no aids and get under par. 

 

Totally cool. We are all in it for different things. I mainly want a reasonably challenging experience that's also fun for me. And for me, no aids putting isn't "fun" simply because the graphical fidelity isn't yet high enough to allow good enough putt reading for my personal taste. One day hopefully!

[J_Schollmeyer]

Buck, on 31 May 2015 - 6:03 PM, said:

Totally cool. We are all in it for different things. I mainly want a reasonably challenging experience that's also fun for me. And for me, no aids putting isn't "fun" simply because the graphical fidelity isn't yet high enough to allow good enough putt reading for my personal taste. One day hopefully!

I think we all have got your point and the nth repetition don't make it any better. I think we all have to wait for the update to seeit  by ourself. All the speculation don't take us any further. I too can't wait for the update to come but we have to wait.

[Buck]

J_Schollmeyer, on 31 May 2015 - 6:25 PM, said:

I think we all have got your point and the nth repetition don't make it any better.

 

Sorry its bothering you J...

 

I responded again because I am refuting the stated notion that "The only reason people want these other aids is to shoot below par - and well below par for some".

 

I want aids because it makes it less frustrating from missed putts due to things being there you can't read without BLI or grid and I suspect I'm not alone in that. 

[clubcaptain]

Doesn't fewer missed putts mean lower scores which could well be below par or well below par for some ?