133 replies to this topic

[Jimmy]

Knighters, on 29 May 2015 - 6:23 PM, said:

I'm 59 years old now. Not too long a wait please. ;-)

ah your still good Knighters. All will be well im sure. I dont think it will be to much longer now for U5.

[Richard]

Knighters, on 29 May 2015 - 6:23 PM, said:

I'm 59 years old now. Not too long a wait please. ;-)

 

59, let's see 59, ahhhhhh 59, sorry but my memory doesn't go back that far. Are you even old enough to play this game.  

[Arsam]

Ah yes, For me at 72 it does seem like a long way back to 59. Oh the good old days. LOL

[Crusher]

Armand, on 25 May 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

I think the mention of the Green Analyzer is being confused with the Putting Assistant in Amateur Mode.  They are not even close to the same thing!

 

I am not mixing up the two. The GA is just another "too close-up-view" of the green and it doesn't emulate real life at all. A golfer does not walk 200 yards to a green, lay on his belly and look at all slopes and breaks on a green. Nah, the GA is hooey for PG.

 

Break line, grid and a zoom into the green from any point on the fairway (F2 F3) is all that is needed for PG IMO.

[Mailman]

Crusher, on 30 May 2015 - 04:15 AM, said:

I am not mixing up the two. The GA is just another "too close-up-view" of the green and it doesn't emulate real life at all. A golfer does not walk 200 yards to a green, lay on his belly and look at all slopes and breaks on a green. Nah, the GA is hooey for PG.

 

Break line, grid and a zoom into the green from any point on the fairway (F2 F3) is all that is needed for PG IMO.

I fail to see how Break Line, Grid and Zoom emulate real life when clearly GA does not.  Perhaps BLI, grid and zoom should all be treated as hooey as well.   

[lefty1948]

I am with Mailman on this one, because the GA is the closest

to what a pro golfer would see when looking at his putt.

[trailblazergolf]

great discussions on this topic !!--I personally do not use grid ( it distracts )-I like the bli they using here --and yes for now on certain putt line ups you need to go to another club to see the line , then back to putter- but no big deal  i'm sure that will be corrected

       good discussion folks !-----oh im  76 lol

[Andrew]

The new Putting Camera resolves this issue.  In addition the F4 key will position you behind, then left side, then opposite side, then right side then back to putting cam

[Mailman]

Andrew, on 30 May 2015 - 2:55 PM, said:

The new Putting Camera resolves this issue.  In addition the F4 key will position you behind, then left side, then opposite side, then right side then back to putting cam

 

Looking forward to see how this Putting Camera fares.  If it is very good it might just tempt me to try a longer trial without the other putting aids discussed.  There are some players in Links who are able to putt pretty well just on what they see on the main screen.  I've dabbled with it but find it very difficult dependent on the green textures used.  Being able to rotate in 90 deg steps is a good idea especially the view from behind the hole.  The sideways views will help with the uphill/downhill part.  Perhaps, if this camera does everything it needs to, then perhaps BLI and Grid will be a crutch that many will do without.

 

Re the functionality of this camera, is the intention to have a zoom function (via the mouse/controller)? 

[Buck]

I really wish I could jump onboard this putting with no aids bandwagon...

 

But for me, at least at 4K resolution, I need way better textures and nuanced shading/lighting to show breaks.

 

As it stands now, when comparing to what I get with the BLI, there's simply no way I could putt with no aids as the break doesn't appear to be there when it is (as shown by BLI)

[Greensboronclion]

Buck you and I have argued in the past but this is not an argument but an observation and try to think out of the box on this one. I play golf all winter long in the Myrtle Beach SC area and a lot of greens and fair waits go dormant and the color texture is not as good as the Spring or early summer and in late summer the greens at a lot of places have greens that burn out. My point is I can read the greens either way and even in the old Links game I could tell which way a putt would break without an aid. My point is I think they can be read without the textures you are looking for. Please let me know what you think as I do value all opinions and right now I am going to play some real golf.

[Buck]

Greensboronclion, on 30 May 2015 - 4:12 PM, said:

Buck you and I have argued in the past 

 

....that was past!  ;-)

 

Greensboronclion, on 30 May 2015 - 4:12 PM, said:

even in the old Links game I could tell which way a putt would break without an aid. My point is I think they can be read without the textures you are looking for. 

 

To me the problem is when the breaks are subtle, not so much a major break, which we all can see somewhat "ok".

Routinely (and I mean every single round) there are putts where the BLI shows you things that flat out are invisible to the eye (or worse, the opposite happens).

 

I've tried tons of no aids putting and it's just frustrating beyond belief to have things happen that are in no way visible to my eyes.  

 

Again this is just for me.  

If you enjoy it, great!  I need much better textures and shading of micro breaks though.  

 

Not sure if you play on 4k, but grass in this game looks really bad in 4k.  

The textures are way too low resolution (at 4k) - hopefully that changes in the future.

[Buck]

For those that are no aids guys, can you give me a read on this one?

 

http://i.imgur.com/WL3n6ji.jpg

 

 

(not 4k - on a laptop as we are out of town this weekend)

[Buck]

Another thought (problem for me) on the textures is that they seem to be trying to "appear lifelike" by introducing shading and variation in the texture that isn't actually resulting from real time lighting or the cut of grass being different, etc ,etc (which *would* of course show us true breaks and subtlety).

 

Check out this screenshot I uploaded here and circled an area in red.  

 

On the BLI the break was completely unchanged throughout the area of the red circle (and even around it), but the green shading is making you feel like "something" is different and changing when it's not at all.

 

http://i.imgur.com/nKeQZeo.jpg

 

 

I guess what it comes down to is that trying to putt with no aids is just making things artificially harder for me and thus less enjoyable.

 

In real life there's the 3rd dimension of depth perception and our eyes can tell terrain movement and break apart from lighting and texture changes - which isn't true in the "digital golf" world.  Real life just shows us subtle clues that tell us what we need to know that aren't there on a digital screen (nor are coded into the game necessarily)

 

I'm personally ok with digital golf being different than real golf in some areas out of necessity to adapt to the medium and ensure enjoyability.

[zmax - sim]

Buck, on 30 May 2015 - 4:47 PM, said:

For those that are no aids guys, can you give me a read on this one?

 

http://i.imgur.com/WL3n6ji.jpg

 

 

(not 4k - on a laptop as we are out of town this weekend)

 

 

Its completely straight.  lol

 

In other words, its impossible on a 2D screen

[zmax - sim]

Buck, on 30 May 2015 - 5:08 PM, said:

Another thought (problem for me) on the textures is that they seem to be trying to "appear lifelike" by introducing shading and variation in the texture that isn't actually resulting from real time lighting or the cut of grass being different, etc ,etc (which *would* of course show us true breaks and subtlety).

 

Check out this screenshot I uploaded here and circled an area in red.  

 

On the BLI the break was completely unchanged throughout the area of the red circle (and even around it), but the green shading is making you feel like "something" is different and changing when it's not at all.

 

http://i.imgur.com/nKeQZeo.jpg

 

 

I guess what it comes down to is that trying to putt with no aids is just making things artificially harder for me and thus less enjoyable.

 

In real life there's the 3rd dimension of depth perception and our eyes can tell terrain movement and break apart from lighting and texture changes - which isn't true in the "digital golf" world.  Real life just shows us subtle clues that tell us what we need to know that aren't there on a digital screen (nor are coded into the game necessarily)

 

I'm personally ok with digital golf being different than real golf in some areas out of necessity to adapt to the medium and ensure enjoyability.

Yeah, it looks like it should break right.

[Buck]

Any other guesses?  (I agree zmax)

 

Just curious what Read the no aids putting group would give on this.  

[Buck]

@zmax:

 

Actually it did break right in that red circle area but the problem is where it looks like the break is changing in the amount in the shaded area no such thing was actually taking place on the BLI. 

 

All of this just feeds to the point that the textures and shading and the way it all looks needs to be far more consistent and of higher-quality to actually have that be the only thing we rely on to judge break.  (At least for me)

[Greensboronclion]

I have read all points and they are all valid as better textures would defiantly make reading putts at no aid much easier. The problem is that only a handful of people will play that level and most will play Min or Mod aids so you have to cater to the masses. To have what is needed to make those types of textures you would need a NASA grade PC to play and most players are not going to have that and that in my opinion is the problem with TGC. In links over the years at least 80% of the people played Pro with a grid and when we changed our league to RAW with the BLI you would have thought the world would end and lots of players dropped from league because of it. The new camera angles Andrew has mentioned will help quite a bit but the BLI will be used most so that is the direction you need to go. This game is tough enough as it is and will get tougher as course forge is introduced and the courses become tougher. One note on a real golf standpoint was that this afternoon I played a quick nine holes and on one hole I had a right to left putt that did the opposite of what I thought and went the other way completely fooling me and the greens are now plush and very readable and I read greens very well yet I was totally deceived by the putt. We call that real golf and a hidden break at the end of putt that was there and I missed which in turn was a misread putt which is what happens in this game also and to me is what makes this game special. This will never be like links where guys count dots and play 18 holes and have only 22 putts and shoot 52. No again I agree to get what you want we need better textures but that would put a lot of people out of the game and that would be bad for the game.

[Buck]

Greensboronclion, on 30 May 2015 - 8:42 PM, said:

To have what is needed to make those types of textures you would need a NASA grade PC to play

 

This is totally a misnomer - I have ACRES of headroom on both my CPU and GPU right now...the game is simply not optimized well at present to take advantage of available resources.  Additionally, they've never even made the requisite hi resolution textures - Once they do that we can test for ourselves and dial other things back if need be to get the high resolution where we want it - The grasses/greens

 

Again, there's no harm in having *options* to dial settings up.  I'm in no way advocating for the baseline system capable of running the game at all go up - Just more options to fine tune and take advantage if you have a higher spec'd system.

 

 

Greensboronclion, on 30 May 2015 - 8:42 PM, said:

The new camera angles Andrew has mentioned will help quite a bit but the BLI will be used most so that is the direction you need to go. 

 

 

I'm not sure if you're directing that at me or others?  I absolutely LOVE the BLI, so I'm happy for that to be the direction of the future until such time that textures and shading allow much better reading of greens without any aids at all.

 

 

Greensboronclion, on 30 May 2015 - 8:42 PM, said:

on a real golf standpoint was that this afternoon I played a quick nine holes and on one hole I had a right to left putt that did the opposite of what I thought

 

 

I knew somebody would mention this.  Apples to oranges.  Real life gives depth perception that simply isn't possible on the 2D screen.  Everyone will have mis-reads, on any system of aiming (real life, computer, BLI, Grid, all systems).   What we really are talking about is how we get the *information* in our brains of what's happening in a way we can interpret and trust.  My examples above are showing random variations and misinformation and I'm just not interested in playing computer golf that requires me to fight against that sort of thing.  I'm trying to have fun!  :-)  

 

What also doesn't help this in PG is that it's too hard to hit a reasonably straight motion swing putt (in my opinion).  I feel that the skill should be in reading what's breaking and judging the speed, far more than simply achieving a reasonably straight putt motion.

 

 

Greensboronclion, on 30 May 2015 - 8:42 PM, said:

No again I agree to get what you want we need better textures but that would put a lot of people out of the game and that would be bad for the game.

 

 

Simply doesn't have to be the case.  We have texture settings in the game right now - We just need higher options and those will in no way impact current players on lower end PC's.  Not sure if people realize that the presets for low/med/high/ultra/etc actually changes out the texture quality.  It's not immediately apparent since texture quality isn't broken out into a slider setting like the trees/shadows/etc are right now.