67 replies to this topic

[Kablammo11]

Woah, what's that? An explicit invitation to contribute by the most prolifically posting admin of the last two months? A lenghty swing meter debate? Visuals?

 

Okay… 

http://vimeo.com/82454104

 

 

A few scattered thoughts.

 

• The desgin is of course a question of tastes. I like it sleek and minimal, but if the official swing meter were to look like a clunky, post-apocalyptic space station infested by alien robots, I could of course live with it. It's just a means to an end.

 

• A 6 to 12 swing meter is pretty much a staple of computer golf. Like it or not, it's a feature every golf game needs to have. With time, I hope we can dream up ever more advanced ways of unleashing a swing and grow ourselves a nice little library of swing control tools. But for starters, this is a must. 

 

• I placed some dots on the swing line in the above video. They represent 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 and 100% power. By placing them so far up the swing line and tightly close to the 12'o,clock point, I hope make distance control harder without taking anything away from the full swing. 

The progression of distance dots mustn't be linear (too easy to get it right in comparison to real life). In my model, there is very little to differentiate between a 85% or a 70% or a 95% shot. Getting the right length for the feel shots is made rather tricky.

 

• Another thing that would make hitting shots a bit harder is if the downswing started quite slowly and would constantly accelerate towards the snap point and there whip through the ball, demanding of the player to commit to clicking without visual feedback.

 

• I very much like the idea behind the dev swing meter to define the snap with a circle in which a rotating ball needs to be stopped. Perfect snap would be defined by the shot ball being stopped inside the circle without touching the border. Any ball somehow touching the bottom circle would still be a valid shot with small line and distance penalties. Miss the bottom circle entirely and that would mean a snap hook, shank or a whiff.

 

• Easy and Hard settings: Tinker with size of the bottom circle and the rotating ball to add or decrease the difficulty; make the distance dots invisible; increase or decrease the acceleration of the downswing (not the speed, just the whiplash action through the ball)

 

Thank you

[Dazmaniac]

Daz, as to your suggestion regarding see the upswing start at 6 o clock instead of 3 o clock, I think you'd need to see for yourself to understand it likely isn't as viable as you think.

 

Ian, just cut down your quote to save space.

 

The reason I prefer the 6 o'clock starting point for the swingmeter is because this is how it works in Links 2003 with the Classic/Click swing. Plus IMO this is where a swing starts.

 

When I play real golf (I'm right handed), as I have addressed the ball, I don't start my downswing with my hands next to my left hip. The club is behind the ball with my hands in front of me. This is how I have always related the golf swing to the Links 2003 swing meter. Even just watching the clips Volker has uploaded, I am not in favour of the 3 o'clock swing start position and even actually getting to try it out will not change my way of thinking.

 

[Andrew]

- The ball tracer is a bit too dominant; I hope there is an option to reduce its opacity to around 15% or so Off, Comet or Tracer are the options : see no reason why we could not add opacity

- The flickering of the tracer while putting is very irritating. (Immersion-destruction)

- The positioning of the swing meter in the bottom right is, I hope, optional This swing meter will go the way of the dodo at some point

- The ball snap on the swing meter (6'o'clock) seems to be covered up by the design. On purpose?

- 3-Click again? What of the 4-Click? Dev Swing meter, Snap point is a mile wide

- Did I spot an aiming post overlayed over the swing meter for a few frames? Yes we now have an aim stick but it gets smaller and smaller the further away you try to aim

- And of course, the post-shot inserts did not exactly make sense all the time... You can turn them off

 

Just giving feedback here. You must be aware of most of this yourself. Just thought I'd mention it to cover up how gloriously happy I am. Or am I?

[fungolfer]

All things I can live with  

The aiming stick getting smaller is a great idea imo. The way of the dodo, could you explain that to the old europeans which don't have a dodo in their living room? LMAO

[IanD]

 

 

The reason I prefer the 6 o'clock starting point for the swingmeter is because this is how it works in Links 2003 with the Classic/Click swing. Plus IMO this is where a swing starts.

 

When I play real golf (I'm right handed), as I have addressed the ball, I don't start my downswing with my hands next to my left hip. The club is behind the ball with my hands in front of me. This is how I have always related the golf swing to the Links 2003 swing meter. Even just watching the clips Volker has uploaded, I am not in favour of the 3 o'clock swing start position and even actually getting to try it out will not change my way of thinking.

 

 

Daz, I knew you'd relate Links starting at 6 o clock. Although there are a few shots in Links that don't start at 6 o clock. Can't recall them all, but putting isn't a 6 o clock start...

 

Maybe the thought of being able to start it where you'd want (adjustable start point or adjustable swing position - ASP) is one that would suit many for individual swings. This could be something concealable to online opponents too.. making every golfers swing totally unique...

[IanD]

This would be a representation of the ASP -

The ASP (shown at 3 o clock) can be moved from that starting position, to the base (6 o clock) position. However, why not have it available from where the FULL mark is ?

 

I know AJ stated this is a dodo swing meter... but illustrating is better than explaining..

[bortimus]

 

 

 

- The ball tracer is a bit too dominant; I hope there is an option to reduce its opacity to around 15% or so Off, Comet or Tracer are the options : see no reason why we could not add opacity

- The flickering of the tracer while putting is very irritating. (Immersion-destruction)

- The positioning of the swing meter in the bottom right is, I hope, optional This swing meter will go the way of the dodo at some point

- The ball snap on the swing meter (6'o'clock) seems to be covered up by the design. On purpose?

- 3-Click again? What of the 4-Click? Dev Swing meter, Snap point is a mile wide

- Did I spot an aiming post overlayed over the swing meter for a few frames? Yes we now have an aim stick but it gets smaller and smaller the further away you try to aim

- And of course, the post-shot inserts did not exactly make sense all the time... You can turn them off

 

Just giving feedback here. You must be aware of most of this yourself. Just thought I'd mention it to cover up how gloriously happy I am. Or am I?

 

 

Andrew, very interesting idea about the aiming stick.  I hope that we are not able to use any sort of top cam to aim either.  Completely unrealistic and in my opinion the one thing that prevented Champ mode in LINKS from being perfect.

 

That being said, the top cam was a wonderful tool for planning an approach shot based on slopes near the hole (I always thought the green analyzer was wonky)  I wonder if there will be a separate window we could pull up during play to look at the green surface but in no way be able to aim a shot? 

 

Also when you say the swing meter will eventually be obsolete, are you hinting that all modes of swinging will be somewhat mouse-movement based? Just curious.

 

 

[bortimus]

Whoops just re-read.  THIS swing meter.  Sorry, disregard my last question

[Mike Jones]

I'd rather see a hole planner type view than a top view camera to be honest, it's nice to be able to plan your next shot though and a combination of a hole planner and being able to walk up to the top of a hill to view the next landing area would be my preference. What do you think?

As far as swing meter is concerned there are many options one of which I did a mockup for a while back when we were still in planning stage. I want to try and make as much as possible of our fully 3d environment so you never feel like you're playing in a static 2d image. This means a 'walking' mode and the ability to pan around your golfer to view your swing from anywhere while still being able to control your swing.

 

 swingcontrol2.jpg   129.5KB   4 downloads

 

 

 

[Dazmaniac]

I'd rather see a hole planner type view than a top view camera to be honest, it's nice to be able to plan your next shot though and a combination of a hole planner and being able to walk up to the top of a hill to view the next landing area would be my preference. What do you think?

As far as swing meter is concerned there are many options one of which I did a mockup for a while back when we were still in planning stage. I want to try and make as much as possible of our fully 3d environment so you never feel like you're playing in a static 2d image. This means a 'walking' mode and the ability to pan around your golfer to view your swing from anywhere while still being able to control your swing.

 

swingcontrol2.jpg

Mike,

 

Do you mean hole plans like Strokesaver graphics?

 

 

I'd love to see this type of thing, and even click on it to move to a certain point on the hole, BUT don't allow any aiming to be done using the image. all aiming (irrespective of skill level) should be done in main cam view IMO.

 

Regards the swing-meter, yes, I could go with that, although it ain't new, lol.

 

PGA Tour 486 (from 1994)

 

 

[Dazmaniac]

All things I can live with

The aiming stick getting smaller is a great idea imo. The way of the dodo, could you explain that to the old europeans which don't have a dodo in their living room? LMAO

 

Meaning..... will become extinct.

 

[bortimus]

A 3d swing meter would be a nice change. The hole planner image would be great as long as it allows green contours to be accurately read with a BLI or something. To ask each course designer to include detailed green contouring on their hole previews/hole planners might be a bit much. The player being able to do this on their own during the game would eliminate that headache.


And yes, totally agree that all aiming should be done in the main view. A fundamental skill of golf is to be able to aim along with being able to swing the club.

[olazaboll]

I'd rather see a hole planner type view than a top view camera to be honest, it's nice to be able to plan your next shot though and a combination of a hole planner and being able to walk up to the top of a hill to view the next landing area would be my preference. What do you think?

As far as swing meter is concerned there are many options one of which I did a mockup for a while back when we were still in planning stage. I want to try and make as much as possible of our fully 3d environment so you never feel like you're playing in a static 2d image. This means a 'walking' mode and the ability to pan around your golfer to view your swing from anywhere while still being able to control your swing.

 

swingcontrol2.jpg

I play RTS in Links ... but if I was a clicker ... thats what I like to see ... old or new .... 

[Dazmaniac]

A 3d swing meter would be a nice change. The hole planner image would be great as long as it allows green contours to be accurately read with a BLI or something. To ask each course designer to include detailed green contouring on their hole previews/hole planners might be a bit much. The player being able to do this on their own during the game would eliminate that headache.


And yes, totally agree that all aiming should be done in the main view. A fundamental skill of golf is to be able to aim along with being able to swing the club.

 

B,

 

I wouldn't expect the designers to provide detailed contours of the greens, but hole previews along the lines of the pic I posted above would be cool (that doesn't have green contouring info present). All the reading of the green would be done in the main cam, with either BLI type device or green grid etc.

 

Like in Links 2003, course come with hole previews if the designers make them. If they don't we don't get them, but you can always refer to the Top View Cam window. I guess what Mike is getting at is having the Strokesaver type hole preview in place of a Top View.

 

Again it all comes down to practicality and how easy creating a fancy hole preview would be and whether some folks would still like a Top View. I'm not saying do away with Top View, but maybe it can be toggled on/off as players prefer, BUT please make it so aiming cannot be done in the Top View/Hole Preview at any level.

 

I did forgot to add earlier that AJ mentioned about the aiming marker and that it got smaller and smaller the further out of view it was getting, to make it harder to line up precisely to targets at over 200 yds away. Like that idea.

 

[Dazmaniac]

Daz, I knew you'd relate Links starting at 6 o clock. Although there are a few shots in Links that don't start at 6 o clock. Can't recall them all, but putting isn't a 6 o clock start...

 

Maybe the thought of being able to start it where you'd want (adjustable start point or adjustable swing position - ASP) is one that would suit many for individual swings. This could be something concealable to online opponents too.. making every golfers swing totally unique...

 

Ian,

 

Yes, the putting and chipping start at about 4.00/4.30 as looking a clock face. I'm not a fan, but not a lot we could do in Links 2003 to change it, lol. At least with a new game being built from the ground up, these type of things can be factored in and discussed by us the community and then implemented as the designers see fit.

 

From what I have been seeing recently, I think all is well in PC golf land, lol.

 

[bortimus]

 

I wouldn't expect the designers to provide detailed contours of the greens, but hole previews along the lines of the pic I posted above would be cool (that doesn't have green contouring info present). All the reading of the green would be done in the main cam, with either BLI type device or green grid etc.

 

Like in Links 2003, course come with hole previews if the designers make them. If they don't we don't get them, but you can always refer to the Top View Cam window. I guess what Mike is getting at is having the Strokesaver type hole preview in place of a Top View.

 

Again it all comes down to practicality and how easy creating a fancy hole preview would be and whether some folks would still like a Top View. 

 

The hole preview you showed is very nice and gives everything from tee to green a player would need.  I'm wondering if "stock" hole previews could be created as part the course building process in CF.  Let's say while designing a hole, you mark certain spots (bunker layup/carry, water hazards, dogloegs, runouts etc...)  and CF automagically calculates these distances from the back tees (usually) and it creates the separate hole preview file as the hole is completed/rendered.  These previews might be a no frills, top cam style view of the hole with need to know distances. Seems doable.  

Then designers can choose to replace these "stock" hole previews with something more artistic/customized if they wish.  Regardless, this would seem to make it possible for EVERY course to have hole previews available. 

 

The one issue with only reading contours in the main cam is if the green surface is not visible from your current lie, (which happens quite often)  there is no alternative.  That's why I was thinking that a hotkeyed "green view" or whatever would be nice.  Again, no aiming in this view, just contour viewing.  Maybe the "green view" would be as simple as the designer drawing a circle around the green in CF while designing the hole, hitting a button, and again, poof the magic of CF creates a readable green file for us players.

 

I hope I made some sense of this. Apologies for the abundance of air quotes lol

[Davefevs]

I agree that top view should not allow you to aim -although perhaps everything should be an option?

I'd like to be able to add caddy notes to the top view / stroke saver view, e.g. Aim for big tree for right hand side of fairway, or bunkers in range if wind behind etc.

These would be personal to me.

[IanD]

Aiming Stick

Nice thought of it getting smaller as it moves away, although I get the feeling the stick will hug the surface as you move it.
Whether you then decide to add numbers to it, well, that's perhaps when purists play or pay.

If you add numbers, have a think of working backwards, ie distance remaining to hole rather than distance from current position.
This would make us think a little more in terms clubs to use.

As for Top Views, and Designer requirement for them to be included, this is perhaps CF territory. If an APP existed within the
CF to outline each hole and number it, it would do as described above and auto generate jpg images. These would be available
for the Designer to edit and include within the CF. You'd need to do it that way or tampering could arise if simply included as jpgs.

Your own Personal Caddy would be MUST if this direction was taken.

[IanD]

 

Okay… 

http://vimeo.com/82454104

 

A few scattered thoughts.

 

 

This post is a little heavy on text and images, apologies..

 

Starting Position - Awaiting Click 1

 

Sir, I do like your Swing Meter. It's minimal and almost transparent. It gives the impression it could be reduced in size easily and moved wherever needed. Floating.

 

However, whilst you added the 50%,60%,70%,80% and 90% markings, I felt the 100% needed adding to ensure it was consistent.

 
 

Power Set - Click 2

 

I really like the impact shown when the click is registered.

 

Downswing Start Position

 

This is the only image I can grab to aid in displaying where you show the downswing beginning. It has the Power click displayed at approx 110%, However, I wonder about this downswing starting position...

 

Downswing Approaching Snap

 

I wanted to show this image, to help illustrate how your downswing looks as it approaches the final 3rd click for the snap position.

 

The Final Snap - Click 3

 

So there we have it, your Swing Meter explained in as basic steps as I could break down.

 

-------------------------------

[IanD]

A few scattered thoughts.

 

• The design is of course a question of tastes. I like it sleek and minimal, but if the official swing meter were to look like a clunky, post-apocalyptic space station infested by alien robots, I could of course live with it. It's just a means to an end.

 

Possibly like you, we'd adapt to whatever the final design became, however, let's not out-date ourselves. We've seen several meters over the years. From power bars to round, elliptical and 3D meters. Can any of them honestly not show their age anymore..?

 

• A 6 to 12 swing meter is pretty much a staple of computer golf. Like it or not, it's a feature every golf game needs to have. With time, I hope we can dream up ever more advanced ways of unleashing a swing and grow ourselves a nice little library of swing control tools. But for starters, this is a must. 

 

For starters.. agreed. I think PG has the ability to evolve in a very serious way. I've seen games offering several swing types, but never seen a game offering several swing meters.

 

• I placed some dots on the swing line in the above video. They represent 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 and 100% power. By placing them so far up the swing line and tightly close to the 12'o,clock point, I hope make distance control harder without taking anything away from the full swing. 

The progression of distance dots mustn't be linear (too easy to get it right in comparison to real life). In my model, there is very little to differentiate between a 85% or a 70% or a 95% shot. Getting the right length for the feel shots is made rather tricky.

 

Totally agree with your thoughts. Anything upto 50% in my opinion is controllable. After that, you'd need practice or a better tempo style of swing.

 

• Another thing that would make hitting shots a bit harder is if the downswing started quite slowly and would constantly accelerate towards the snap point and there whip through the ball, demanding of the player to commit to clicking without visual feedback.

 

100% agree. Call it Purist Mode if you want.. and it can incorporate elements of Club styles as previously mentioned by the guys here at PP, that they wish to expand upon.

 

• I very much like the idea behind the dev swing meter to define the snap with a circle in which a rotating ball needs to be stopped. Perfect snap would be defined by the shot ball being stopped inside the circle without touching the border. Any ball somehow touching the bottom circle would still be a valid shot with small line and distance penalties. Miss the bottom circle entirely and that would mean a snap hook, shank or a whiff.

 

Good addition. We've both seen this mentioned in that other thread, and I'd certainly like to see the game incorporate this inclusion.

 

• Easy and Hard settings: Tinker with size of the bottom circle and the rotating ball to add or decrease the difficulty; make the distance dots invisible; increase or decrease the acceleration of the downswing (not the speed, just the whiplash action through the ball)

 

Like the idea of adjusting the size and possibly acceleration of the downswing, but maybe this could be something to add to the Club section instead? Mike spoke about shafts and grips etc, so maybe this is something to develop later with this in mind.

 

I'd also note, if this was an addition to Clubs, there would be no EASY setting. Once you enter the world of combination golf, whereby setting your own shaft, grips, swing style etc, you don't get to perform at a lower level. You're defining yourself, so it shouldn't be anything but one setting.. if it's not for you, then use the basic 3 click Style. If you enter Purist Mode.. then that's where you should find yourself..

 

Thank you

 

Always enjoy your posts and additions, thankyou!