159 replies to this topic

[Greensboronclion]

Well as an ex Links 3C guy i finally tried the 3C here and I got to tell you its quite tougher than I had thought.  FIrst off I played the Amatuer event at Chicago and shot +2 for round one using the 3C and tho the Putting and Chipping is easier in my opinion than MS its brutal when you miss 6 oclock everywhere else and its quite a challange at even that level to hit 6 all the time.  I will try events this week at the other levels but man if you are a hair off you are penalized big time.  In Links it was a penalty to miss but not as much as with PG.  Went back to MS and was -2 thru 9 but again much easier to find the fairway.  I would guess they equal out but i will have to try TP and Pro before I am ready to say.  Anyway I was wrong and its tougher than I thought so I am eating my Crow tonight.  LOL.

[mebby]

I agree that 3C is certainly tougher to keep it in the fairway off the tee box (I'm talking TP level).  But I have generally found that my scores tend to mostly even out between 3C and MS because I find the short game much easier in 3C (as you also mentioned) that with MS.  I can hit magical flop shots all day long with 3C but I don't even attempt the flop with MS unless I have no other choice.

 

But even so... I personally feel that TP level is slightly unfair for 3C players vs MS.  It could just be that I don't have the patience to truly dedicate myself to mastering 3C and perhaps I'd get better over time if I stuck with it but it's much more of a grind for me to pull out the same scores on 3C that I do on MS.  I can do it.  But I find that I'm scrambling my ass off to to do it because playing from the rough (constantly) is difficult.  Especially on a course like Chicago because of it's length and it's tight fairways (and those dang low hanging trees).

 

I'd be really curious to see what the stats say.  But I'd be willing to be that 3C players are at a slight disadvantage on TP level.  Not sure about Pro as I haven't tried it but I don't find Pro MS drastically different than TP...

[frank70]

The long game seems to be harder for the 3-clickers - the statistics suggest that. But only if you compare the Top 5 swingers to the Top 5 clickers. The rest of the field is rather comparable - the statistics are relatively close together (FIR, GIR).

 

Probably the top mouse swingers have found a very fitting combination of mouse sensitivity in the game and dpi settings. But that doesn't mean that hitting good, straight shots is easy. It really requires great concentration and a good control of your hand/movement. There are days when i simply cannot reproduce my "stock shot". Then my shots are suddenly going left or right and i cannot really reproduce why that is. Probably my arm angle is a little off or my tempo. Mouse swing is very sensitive. Even slight differences in the swing have rather large consequences. Therefore i would conquer the suggestion by some clickers that MS is easy. If you want to be good at it, you have to put work in it.

 

We have talked already about the limitations of the 3-click-mechanic. A missing snap apllies three penalties. So the devs could reduce the snap penalty in Tour Pro - but that would mean all three of them. And they could make the penalty for mouse swing a little bit more severe.

 

But then they should look also into other elements of the game. The short game and especially partial shots and overswing is way easier for the clickers. Then they have to tinker with that as well. Otherwise the clickers would have an advantage. It doesn't always help to look at scores per round. In order to even out the difficulty you have to look at all elements of the game.

[highfade]

I've just finished my Tourpro event at OGT and ended on -16 using 3-Click.  Not comparing to MS just my honest feedback is that all my rounds were totally lop-sided.  

 

All the full shots down to a 60 wedge I find the penalty way too severe. Missing the green by miles with a wedge doesn't seem right. The advantage with 3-click is distance control;  it's pretty easy to snap on the power spot you want to play. Direction penalty should be more like the current Amateur level for full shots.

 

Pitching, chipping, flop and sand shots might need toughening up for Tourpro I have to agree. Distance control is even easier due to the slower short game meter as wall as hitting the snap.

 

Apart from some putts I feel should lip out  but fall, the putting difficulty seems fine.

 

The thing is if I compare my 4 rounds to a PGA tour player with the same score, the two look miles apart. The tour player has more little misses with the long game but less success with the scrambling.

[frank70]

I've just finished my Tourpro event at OGT and ended on -16 using 3-Click.  Not comparing to MS just my honest feedback is that all my rounds were totally lop-sided.  

 

All the full shots down to a 60 wedge I find the penalty way too severe. Missing the green by miles with a wedge doesn't seem right. The advantage with 3-click is distance control;  it's pretty easy to snap on the power spot you want to play. Direction penalty should be more like the current Amateur level for full shots.

 

Pitching, chipping, flop and sand shots might need toughening up for Tourpro I have to agree. Distance control is even easier due to the slower short game meter as wall as hitting the snap.

 

Apart from some putts I feel should lip out  but fall, the putting difficulty seems fine.

 

The thing is if I compare my 4 rounds to a PGA tour player with the same score, the two look miles apart. The tour player has more little misses with the long game but less success with the scrambling.

.... and he putts way, way worse. The putting is the element of the game that fails the most when we talk about a golf simulation. If you can have 4-5 putts less per round than the best players in the world there is no question that the difficulty of putting doesn't represent the real game. Some say it is not possible in a video game - i say at least the devs could try to make the reading of the putts more realistic.

[mebby]

Direction penalty should be more like the current Amateur level for full shots

Completely disagree with this! If they changed the snap penalty to be more like the amateur level then 3C on TP level would be insanely easy!

I agree that it may need a small adjustment but going all the way back to amateur levels would be far too much.

[highfade]

Completely disagree with this! If they changed the snap penalty to be more like the amateur level then 3C on TP level would be insanely easy!

I agree that it may need a small adjustment but going all the way back to amateur levels would be far too much.

 

Well sorry then!

 

No, you're right, it would be too easy for Tourpro. I was trying to level out the difference between short and long game difficulty  for 3-click, meaning a certain level, for example Pro could be made up of Amateur long game and Tourpro short game.

[frank70]

Well sorry then!

 

No, you're right, it would be too easy for Tourpro. I was trying to level out the difference between short and long game difficulty  for 3-click, meaning a certain level, for example Pro could be made up of Amateur long game and Tourpro short game.

Richybro and JohnDalyOGT are scoring -30 per 72 holes on the Pro level regularly over at OGT (PGA Tour).

 

If any you could take the current penalty for long shots on Pro and try that out on the Tour Pro level. But considering that the short game already is easier for the clickers that might swing the balance towards the clickers. I think going from off/off to off/min was crucial with the scores. Maybe they should revert that decision. Then the scores of the swingers would go up again. 

[mebby]

Well sorry then!

 

No, you're right, it would be too easy for Tourpro. I was trying to level out the difference between short and long game difficulty  for 3-click, meaning a certain level, for example Pro could be made up of Amateur long game and Tourpro short game.

I agree in principle.  I think the 3C penalty for TP is too extreme.  I think there needs to be an adjustment.  I also think that the TP sensitivity for MS could be made a tad tougher as well.

 

Or... they could just leave it alone as I think things basically even out in total!  Hell... I don't know what I think! 

[frank70]

I agree in principle.  I think the 3C penalty for TP is too extreme.  I think there needs to be an adjustment.  I also think that the TP sensitivity for MS could be made a tad tougher as well.

 

Or... they could just leave it alone as I think things basically even out in total!  Hell... I don't know what I think! 

Not that easy right!  . The next question would be, if the best 3-clickers are equally good Perfect Golf players as the best swingers. There is a little bit more about the game as only snap and penalty (use of backspin and sidespin, calculation of wind and height differences, slope angles on the green and how to use it, pitching with roll, without roll, different trajectories of shots, shaping shots and, and, and). I truly believe they are equally good. But only comparing scores probably isn't enough.

 

It simply is pretty hard to create a good balance between such different swing mechanics. But it would be great if the devs could create an almost level playing field between them (plus controller swings that are soon available)

[mebby]

Not that easy right!  . The next question would be, if the best 3-clickers are equally good Perfect Golf players as the best swingers. There is a little bit more about the game as only snap and penalty (use of backspin and sidespin, calculation of wind and height differences, slope angles on the green and how to use it, pitching with roll, without roll, different trajectories of shots, shaping shots and, and, and). I truly believe they are equally good. But only comparing scores probably isn't enough.

 

It simply is pretty hard to create a good balance between such different swing mechanics. But it would be great if the devs could create an almost level playing field between them (plus controller swings that are soon available)

I agree Frank.  The only way I know to truly compare it is for the same player to fully test out each swing mechanic but even then it's not perfect because some may be naturally better at one method versus the other.

 

In my personal testing I found 3C and MS to be very similar in terms of total scoring.  I enjoyed MS much, much more so it's hard to say that I'm not biased there.

[Golden Bear]

I am so glad I simply chose a swing method and am not spending months scrutinizing all aspects of it.  Let's simply play golf!  

[Golden Bear]

"The next question would be, if the best 3-clickers are equally good Perfect Golf players as the best swingers."

 

A ​more appropriate name for mouse users than swinger would be mouse mover.  That is unless one has tied some string to their mouse and indeed are swinging them.  

[frank70]

"The next question would be, if the best 3-clickers are equally good Perfect Golf players as the best swingers."

 

A ​more appropriate name for mouse users than swinger would be mouse mover.  That is unless one has tied some string to their mouse and indeed are swinging them.  

Yeah. It wasn't me who called it "motion swing". Don't blame me  . I am okay with mouse mover, pusher or what ever else  .

 

Back to topic: I firmly believe that the clickers are every bit as good as the "swinger, movers, pushers". So reduce the snap penalty a little bit, increase the penalty for the long shots of motion swing a little bit, watch the development of the stats and scores and go from there.

[Golden Bear]

@ Frank70... Cheers  It was just an observation to poke fun at the frustration that some have with the swing methods.  It makes me think that they would swing their mouses before throwing them at a wall.  

[Greensboronclion]

Richybro and JohnDalyOGT are scoring -30 per 72 holes on the Pro level regularly over at OGT (PGA Tour).

 

If any you could take the current penalty for long shots on Pro and try that out on the Tour Pro level. But considering that the short game already is easier for the clickers that might swing the balance towards the clickers. I think going from off/off to off/min was crucial with the scores. Maybe they should revert that decision. Then the scores of the swingers would go up again. 

 

Frank what you are missing is that only a handful of you are shooting these numbers and the rest of us are not.  I admire wanting a tougher game but soon the field in these events will be down to a handful of players and that is not what we want. 

[frank70]

Frank what you are missing is that only a handful of you are shooting these numbers and the rest of us are not.  I admire wanting a tougher game but soon the field in these events will be down to a handful of players and that is not what we want. 

I don't know if you were following a thread over at OGT where JohnDaly is talking this special topic. He says mouse swinging is too easy. HIS intention is too make mouse swing more difficult to bring the scores of the Top players of each swing mechanic more in line.

 

So it isn't necessarily a question of making something tougher. You can equally make 3-clicking easier. But if you look at the average scores, the scores of the (Top)-clickers are more realistic overall at the Tour Pro level. A handful of swingers are really going a bit low for the most difficult level of the game.

 

P.S.: It is quite interesting that your scores are more or less the same at the Pro and Tour Pro level. I see that with mine as well. If you look at the clickers there seems to be a rather big gap between Pro scoring and Tour Pro scoring. So after all JohnDaly probably has a point that 3-clicking (long shots) is real difficult at tour pro. 

[Golden Bear]

" So after all JohnDaly probably has a point that 3-clicking (long shots) is real difficult at tour pro."

 

JohnDaly is correct.  I can attest to the fact that tour pro for us 3 clickers is horrendously difficult to execute straight shots.  As for swinging past 100%, forget it.  With a shot with overswing on tour pro if you miss the snap so small that you can barely see it is off the snap line, the shots still go way off into the roughs.  It is simply too frustrating and difficult for the majority of the masses.

[highfade]

" So after all JohnDaly probably has a point that 3-clicking (long shots) is real difficult at tour pro."

 

JohnDaly is correct.  I can attest to the fact that tour pro for us 3 clickers is horrendously difficult to execute straight shots.  As for swinging past 100%, forget it.  With a shot with overswing on tour pro if you miss the snap so small that you can barely see it is off the snap line, the shots still go way off into the roughs.  It is simply too frustrating and difficult for the majority of the masses.

 

It was once suggested that the meter should go faster once you go past 100% power but with no additional snap penalty. The thought behind it was that the faster meter would be penalty enough, I kinda liked the idea.

[Golden Bear]

It was once suggested that the meter should go faster once you go past 100% power but with no additional snap penalty. The thought behind it was that the faster meter would be penalty enough, I kinda liked the idea.

 

That was me who suggested it.  Other golf games I have played in the past including TW and uTourgolf.com used this system.

 

On a side note I think someone posted this bug already but just to be sure.  In the latest patch if a 3 clicker allows the swing meter to go to the end without clicking, now all shots are 100% instead of the random 101%-122% as was intended.  I am sure that some will exploit this bug.