159 replies to this topic

[Crusher]

Looking at leader board screenshots sent to me by an OGT member, combined with PG tournaments and challenges, the bulk of the top 10 on leader boards are MS players.  This implies that they are #1 very skilled with MS but also implies that we who are very skilled with 3C have a tremendously difficult time hitting Tee and Fairway shots for long distances.

 

I agree with everyone who plays Pro or Tour Pro using 3C that we are at a disadvantage being 3clickers.  We have been extremely good 3clickers for many years. "We" denotes the hardcore PC golfers who are competitive and play to win any tournament we join.

 

No way I will ever change to MS, I don't like the swing method but I do think 3C needs a tweak at Pro and Tour Pro.

[DennisHarris]

I think to much time is wasted on this forum hyper analyzing every little thing in the game.  This is a golf game and a golf game only.  No mater how hard you folks work/try to make perfect golf as hard as real golf, it ain't going to happen in this lifetime.  Tour Pro is so not realistic penalty wise players are dropping back to pro difficulty because it has become so stupid hard.  ( I do not mean to offend you steadfast tour pro folks but you guys clearly need oxygen to help your brain neurons function properly.)  Because Statistical comparing real golf to this golf game is fuzzy math at best.  LOL!  (Yep! I said it!) But it is so true.  Sorry folks a flying purple people eater dressed as a King or Queen is still nothing but  a flying purple people eater.

[flyer01]

I've been playing PG since it started. I almost always play solo, 3click, Tour Pro custom (off,off) in breezy or gusty conditions, use the BLI and grids and consider myself a solid average TP player. My scores usually vary from +2 to -4 ( not quite that good in tournies, pressure kinda gets to me, lol ). My stock drive off the tee is at around 95% power but regularly bump it into overswing area when I need to. Probably average 60% FIR. Long approach shots give me the most trouble. The point is, is that I don't want to see 3click become easier at TP. If I want easier there are already plenty of ways to do that and I certainly don't want to make it harder by going "naked". I do try MS every now and then but really have no idea if it is easier or harder than clicking. If there is an imbalance between the two swings in TP then please do not make clicking any easier. For me the game does not have to simulate real life golf, just give me an appropriate challenge in a reasonable way. For me it is very close right now.

[Sinewiz]

That was me who suggested it.  Other golf games I have played in the past including TW and uTourgolf.com used this system.

 

On a side note I think someone posted this bug already but just to be sure.  In the latest patch if a 3 clicker allows the swing meter to go to the end without clicking, now all shots are 100% instead of the random 101%-122% as was intended.  I am sure that some will exploit this bug.

This has been corrected. You now get a random percentage if you don't click a second time.

[Greensboronclion]

I don't know if you were following a thread over at OGT where JohnDaly is talking this special topic. He says mouse swinging is too easy. HIS intention is too make mouse swing more difficult to bring the scores of the Top players of each swing mechanic more in line.

 

So it isn't necessarily a question of making something tougher. You can equally make 3-clicking easier. But if you look at the average scores, the scores of the (Top)-clickers are more realistic overall at the Tour Pro level. A handful of swingers are really going a bit low for the most difficult level of the game.

 

P.S.: It is quite interesting that your scores are more or less the same at the Pro and Tour Pro level. I see that with mine as well. If you look at the clickers there seems to be a rather big gap between Pro scoring and Tour Pro scoring. So after all JohnDaly probably has a point that 3-clicking (long shots) is real difficult at tour pro. 

3 clicking long shots at TP is very difficult and to much of a penalty to use and you are right that the long game is easier at MS than 3C.  You are also correct that I personally don't see a lot of difference in TP and Pro and yes they might want to toughen it up and if they do it will solve the problem and most everyone will play Pro and just a few will play TP.  The truth is they might as well just make TP a very hard core sim and have no aids and let those who wish to play that way play it but I got to ask how long would interest be in a tour with about 5 or 6 players and I don't think it would be long.  Most people who play this game and I will go out on a limb and say about 95% play for sheer joy and don't want the hardcore experience that a no aids hard core sim would do.  I posted on a thread in the LSPN forum about how tough this game is compared to my links days when I would average 57 and that was good for a top 15 and sometimes a little better.  I stated that over here at the TP or Pro level 69 was great and it really is but there are some here that can tear the game up and that will always be the case but not for the better part of the playing community.  We see a few players that are shooting -30 well consider this that we all know these courses like the back of our hands and soon there will be a bunch of courses and yes a few will achieve that number but not many especially when we get even tougher courses.  My thinking is that -30 isn't killing it because I remember when you had to be at -80 for the event to have a chance or how bout TW on the console where you better be -100.  For me its tough enough but what the heck make it tougher then it will be easier to just stay at Pro.

[HeNs]

I think to much time is wasted on this forum hyper analyzing every little thing in the game. This is a golf game and a golf game only. No mater how hard you folks work/try to make perfect golf as hard as real golf, it ain't going to happen in this lifetime. Tour Pro is so not realistic penalty wise players are dropping back to pro difficulty because it has become so stupid hard. ( I do not mean to offend you steadfast tour pro folks but you guys clearly need oxygen to help your brain neurons function properly.) Because Statistical comparing real golf to this golf game is fuzzy math at best. LOL! (Yep! I said it!) But it is so true. Sorry folks a flying purple people eater dressed as a King or Queen is still nothing but a flying purple people eater.

+1 Denny and well put..!

[Golden Bear]

This has been corrected. You now get a random percentage if you don't click a second time.

Bravo.  Thanks for the reply.

[frank70]

3 clicking long shots at TP is very difficult and to much of a penalty to use and you are right that the long game is easier at MS than 3C.  You are also correct that I personally don't see a lot of difference in TP and Pro and yes they might want to toughen it up and if they do it will solve the problem and most everyone will play Pro and just a few will play TP.  The truth is they might as well just make TP a very hard core sim and have no aids and let those who wish to play that way play it but I got to ask how long would interest be in a tour with about 5 or 6 players and I don't think it would be long.  Most people who play this game and I will go out on a limb and say about 95% play for sheer joy and don't want the hardcore experience that a no aids hard core sim would do.  I posted on a thread in the LSPN forum about how tough this game is compared to my links days when I would average 57 and that was good for a top 15 and sometimes a little better.  I stated that over here at the TP or Pro level 69 was great and it really is but there are some here that can tear the game up and that will always be the case but not for the better part of the playing community.  We see a few players that are shooting -30 well consider this that we all know these courses like the back of our hands and soon there will be a bunch of courses and yes a few will achieve that number but not many especially when we get even tougher courses.  My thinking is that -30 isn't killing it because I remember when you had to be at -80 for the event to have a chance or how bout TW on the console where you better be -100.  For me its tough enough but what the heck make it tougher then it will be easier to just stay at Pro.

I am with you on mostly everything you wrote. The key question was if 3-clicking is more difficult than mouse swinging. If it is the case - at least in the long game - there are two solutions: make 3-clicking easier or make mouse swinging a little bit more difficult. It's the choice of the devs. If they make swinging more difficult the scores for the best would come a bit down to earth, but of course the average scores overall would probably go up. I really don't know if a lot would leave the Tour then.

 

I don't know what the future player base will be. But i am not absolutely sure that there will be no interest in a difficulty level where par is great and the very best don't shoot 63 or 64 on average but 68. Time will tell. When you look at OGT the PGA Tour field is not bigger as the Tour Pro field. No matter what, i think everybody will have fun in the future. There are really enough options to find something that fits.

[Acrilix]

You have to remember that clicking has been around for 30+ years whereas the ratio swing is a very new introduction. As time goes by then I think there will be a far greater improvement in the MS scores as people get the hang of it compared to the click scores, which will probably improve little over what they are now.

[Crusher]

You have to remember that clicking has been around for 30+ years whereas the ratio swing is a very new introduction. As time goes by then I think there will be a far greater improvement in the MS scores as people get the hang of it compared to the click scores, which will probably improve little over what they are now.

 

That is true. However, why do you think MS players will get even better yet 3C will not improve over the coming weeks and months?

[Golden Bear]

That is true. However, why do you think MS players will get even better yet 3C will not improve over the coming weeks and months?

 

The answer is quite elementary.  You either get the snap or you don't.  No matter how long you play this game some days and/or rounds you simply cannot buy a straight shot.

[Crusher]

The answer is quite elementary.  You either get the snap or you don't.  No matter how long you play this game some days and/or rounds you simply cannot buy a straight shot.

 

It's not even close to the correct answer.  The correct answer is in the minds of the devs, not the members.

[frank70]

The answer is quite elementary.  You either get the snap or you don't.  No matter how long you play this game some days and/or rounds you simply cannot buy a straight shot.

"Off-days" apply to mouse swing as well. In some rounds my mouse swing (push or move or whatever  ) is a little off as well.

 

There is not such a thing as "learning" the mouse swing. I got better over time because of experience. I know the distances of my clubs better (uphill shots/downhill shots especially). I can calculate better what the ball is going to do after impact on the green (bounce, spin, roll). I can gauge the effect of the ball lie and the wind effects better. I got better with scrambling and bunker play cause i now know how to setup the ball flight trajectory to get certain distances. This all has nothing to do with the swing mechanic.

 

If we have 4 swing mechanics in the future, i really believe that this "which mechanic is the easiest-discussion" is going to be a neverending story. And rightfully so because it will be almost impossible to even things out and please everyone. That's the backlash of many options. But on the other hand there is always the possibility to setup different tourneys for different swing mechanics. In order to have big enough fields it would really be nice if PG sells a lot of copies with the official release  .

[highfade]

Imo, the first thing to do is getting the balance right for each of the swing mechanics; meaning, get the full shots, short game and putting on the same difficulty level.  Only then can you start adjusting the difficulty between the swing types.

 

As a 3 clicker and judging Tourpro difficulty on a scale from 1 to 10 for each area of the game it would look something like this:

 

Long game (all full shots)       10

Short game (pitch&chip)          5

Scrambling (flop&sand)           6

Putting                                     4

 

How would you rate MS?

[Golden Bear]

It's not even close to the correct answer.  The correct answer is in the minds of the devs, not the members.

 

Your reply makes no sense.  What do the devs have to do with whether or not one can hit the snap?

[frank70]

Imo, the first thing to do is getting the balance right for each of the swing mechanics; meaning, get the full shots, short game and putting on the same difficulty level.  Only then can you start adjusting the difficulty between the swing types.

 

As a 3 clicker and judging Tourpro difficulty on a scale from 1 to 10 for each area of the game it would look something like this:

 

Long game (all full shots)       10

Short game (pitch&chip)          5

Scrambling (flop&sand)           6

Putting                                     4

 

How would you rate MS?

That is a very subjective score for everybody i would suppose.

 

I am going by the stats at OGT and compare them to the best players in the real golfing world - we are talking about a sim, right? A number of 5 in my scale is "difficulty right on the money. Everything higher is more difficult, everything lower than 5 is easier than it should be:

 

MS:

• Long game: 4
• Short game: 4
• Scrambling: 2
• Putting 1

 

3-click:

 

• Long game: 6
• Short game: 3
• Scrambling: 2
• Putting: 1

 

I explain my scale: The best MS players hit 5-10 % more fairways than the best pros. It's not like TGC where you can hit the fairways blindfolded. But it is a tad too much.

Pitching is a 5 for me -  i don't find it easy especially with the ratio 1:4 and the short game swingmeter. Chipping is a 3 for me cause the ball bites too much, especially out of the rough. So i give a 4 there.

Scrambling in the game is way easier than in real life. You just have to look at the stats at OGT. 15-20% better scrambling percentage and 25-30% better sand saves. That saves a lot of shots.

Putting statistics are insanely low. The best players have 24-25 putts per round on average. That's 4-5 strokes better than the best pros - THAT IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE and the real reason for 62 or 61s in the game.

 

For 3-clicking the percentages for FIR and GIR are a tad lower than on the PGA Tour - so i give a 6 in difficulty

Short game is easier than with the MS because the swing meter is even slower than with full shots. So distance control and snap is easier and there is no change of mechanic. Mouse swingers have to perform a different motion when playing pitches and chips.

Scrambling seems to be equally easy - the stats don't show much difference between clicking and MS.

Dito for putts: Clickers are as good putters as Swingers.

 

I have to say that the relative ease of scrambling and putting shouldn't only be connected to the swing mechanic. The lack of roll of chip shots and flop shots (especially out of the rough) plays a huge role on the very good percentages.

And for putting: If you get a perfect picture of the ondulations of the green of course you will make more putts. You are never in doubt if a putt breaks slightly left or slightly right on certain points of the putting line. There is no element of uncertainty. It is only a question if you interpret the BLI correctly. In real life even pros misread a putt (for instance: breaks ever so slightly to the left and they thought it will be straigt). Can't do that in the game because you see every break picture perfect. 

[Mike Jones]

"Off-days" apply to mouse swing as well. In some rounds my mouse swing (push or move or whatever  ) is a little off as well.

 

There is not such a thing as "learning" the mouse swing. I got better over time because of experience. I know the distances of my clubs better (uphill shots/downhill shots especially). I can calculate better what the ball is going to do after impact on the green (bounce, spin, roll). I can gauge the effect of the ball lie and the wind effects better. I got better with scrambling and bunker play cause i now know how to setup the ball flight trajectory to get certain distances. This all has nothing to do with the swing mechanic.

 

If we have 4 swing mechanics in the future, i really believe that this "which mechanic is the easiest-discussion" is going to be a neverending story. And rightfully so because it will be almost impossible to even things out and please everyone. That's the backlash of many options. But on the other hand there is always the possibility to setup different tourneys for different swing mechanics. In order to have big enough fields it would really be nice if PG sells a lot of copies with the official release  .

 

It's human nature, no different from people who play MMOs and having the opinion that one race is better than another, Elves have it easy and need nerfing whereas Dwarves need a boost to speed and agility

[MimicPS]

I'm reposting this from a recent discussion, centred around the controller swing, but which evolved into a wide-ranging discussion of the 'parity' of swing types. My opinion is, and has been through watching regular playing opponents struggle with certain elements of 3-Click, that to bring it at least in line with MS (the other 'major' swing group at present) the penalties would need to be addressed separately in the same way as MotionSwing is:

 

I was hoping, at the start of the early development work on Perfect Golf, that the 3-click swing would address this very issue. The 'unrealistic' element of 3-click swing (I qualify that description because I agree that no swing, performed whilst sitting on your behind using one hand can really claim to be any more realistic) is that the swing arc is always the same - there is no 'delivery' of the stroke in the same way it would be with an input which is fully controlled by the player.

 

I was hoping that the swing mechanic would move into the third dimension so that the plane through which the swing moves is as vital as the snap through the ball. In fact, when you compare a real-time/analogue swing to that of the 3-click, the element of 'snap' comes out of it completely - there is none. What I would have started to research and refine would have been to change the thinking around the swing to address the elements of the real game.

 

The most important starts with the takeaway, because if you find yourself in the wrong position at the top of the swing you certainly will find that affecting the downswing and delivery of strike. So, if players want a click mechanism entirely then the club path could be separated from the power and downswing element by starting the swing meter at a 3 or 4 o'clock position and an initial click made at the snap point as the meter passes through and into the power phase.

 

That would then allow the final 'snap' or impact phase to not suffer the three-element penalty of direction, distance and ball spin but instead just the one. Keep the power as the power, whatever the outcome of the snap, because that will at times help (when missing the optimum shot but still clearing a body of water or hazard area) and at times hinder (a player using an analogue input swing doesn't lose distance to the same degree and so can sail off of the desired line by a much great distance and find more trouble).

 

With 3-D characters and the advance in graphics over the years, player interactions have moved to being much more screen-based, so couldn't the meter instead move around the character's arc of movement and be in real-time? I know this has been done before, in fact to great success as many as 20 years ago, and would again give much greater 'ownership' of the player to his click swing.

[highfade]

Frank, your numbers look spot-on.

[Mike Jones]

I'm reposting this from a recent discussion, centred around the controller swing, but which evolved into a wide-ranging discussion of the 'parity' of swing types. My opinion is, and has been through watching regular playing opponents struggle with certain elements of 3-Click, that to bring it at least in line with MS (the other 'major' swing group at present) the penalties would need to be addressed separately in the same way as MotionSwing is:

 

I was hoping, at the start of the early development work on Perfect Golf, that the 3-click swing would address this very issue. The 'unrealistic' element of 3-click swing (I qualify that description because I agree that no swing, performed whilst sitting on your behind using one hand can really claim to be any more realistic) is that the swing arc is always the same - there is no 'delivery' of the stroke in the same way it would be with an input which is fully controlled by the player.

 

I was hoping that the swing mechanic would move into the third dimension so that the plane through which the swing moves is as vital as the snap through the ball. In fact, when you compare a real-time/analogue swing to that of the 3-click, the element of 'snap' comes out of it completely - there is none. What I would have started to research and refine would have been to change the thinking around the swing to address the elements of the real game.

 

The most important starts with the takeaway, because if you find yourself in the wrong position at the top of the swing you certainly will find that affecting the downswing and delivery of strike. So, if players want a click mechanism entirely then the club path could be separated from the power and downswing element by starting the swing meter at a 3 or 4 o'clock position and an initial click made at the snap point as the meter passes through and into the power phase.

 

That would then allow the final 'snap' or impact phase to not suffer the three-element penalty of direction, distance and ball spin but instead just the one. Keep the power as the power, whatever the outcome of the snap, because that will at times help (when missing the optimum shot but still clearing a body of water or hazard area) and at times hinder (a player using an analogue input swing doesn't lose distance to the same degree and so can sail off of the desired line by a much great distance and find more trouble).

 

With 3-D characters and the advance in graphics over the years, player interactions have moved to being much more screen-based, so couldn't the meter instead move around the character's arc of movement and be in real-time? I know this has been done before, in fact to great success as many as 20 years ago, and would again give much greater 'ownership' of the player to his click swing.

 

I read your previous post mimic and also this one, here's my take - 

 

When golf games started to be developed, clicking was really the only method available so 2 and 3 click swing types developed. As the years went by golf games came and went with many different swing mechanics but a lot of people still really like to 3 click even though there are other arguably more interesting ways of doing it.

 

I think it comes down to ease of mechanic and simplicity. 3 click is easy to grasp, click to start, click for power, click for accuracy. It's popular because of that simplicity.

 

We chose to be innovative on the other swing mechanics such as the motion swing and the soon to be released RTS mouse swing where you have length of swing, tempo and swing path to factor in. 

 

These days lots of people like using a gamepad to play golf games and they mostly are looking for an easy to understand swing especially when it's tied to the avatar's swing. Pull back the stick and the golfer swing back further for more power, swing down on a straight path to hit it straight and swing forward faster or slower to get more or less power. 

 

There are literally hundreds of permutations that are possible and we have discussed and prototyped loads of them but at some point we really have to make a choice as a developer which swing types we think people will want to use and focus our attention on them and make them as enjoyable as they can be.