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#81 Ted_Ball

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 06:59 AM

Beautiful animation. How cool would it be to adjust the rotation of the hips. She isn't letting her lower body come around and all the power is in her arms. Maybe a bit wider stance and definitely fix that grip. I'm liking this more and more. Building a real swing with subsequent results so that you could tweak it for better distance and flight shape.  

 

No. Forget about my pet peeve. You can have as many clicks as you like. This is the future of sim golf. I'm throwing out all my previous philosophies and ideals. Scrap the last four pages of rubbish. Let's do this.

 

I'll break down a 'golf swing' into its essential parts and think through how this can be done. The future looks bright. Oh..and devs hold off releasing PG for the time being till this is sorted...OK!!  Woohoo



#82 Kablammo11

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 07:11 AM

Yeah, you devs... That mo-cap you just did? Scrap that. We figured out something better. 

;)


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#83 shimonko

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 08:49 AM

No, don't scrap the mo-cap. Swing faults and tempo can infiltrate into people's real game. With respect for what you have created K11, her swing takes twice as long as a pro.

 

Double her speed her to 1 second from takeaway to impact and clicking becomes much tougher.  Accuracy additionally becomes even harder to judge from behind-the-player compared to side-on, but side-on kills immersion.

 

IRL we don't swing back to a point. Tell people to do a half swing and their backswing will be far greater than 50%, yet like any pendulum system, still take the same time as a full swing.  The backswing must follow the mouse's speed, not simply be at the same speed and cut short. The backswing gives cadence and repeatability, but its length happens automatically in preparing for the desired shot distance.

 

We also have no influence at impact in the real swing, quickly losing conscious control of the club after transition. So clicking at the bottom has always felt unintuitive to me.  

 

If trying to capture the essence of a real swing is the purpose, I'm convinced transition and acceleration from transition is what the controller must concentrate on. 



#84 Kablammo11

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 12:02 PM

Okay, it's not fair that Teddy should do all the heavy lifting in this thread and stick his neck out all the time just for others to snipe at his ideas. So, without wishing to take over Teddy's home ground, allow me to present an idea of mine and then to get pummeled and clobbered by the opionoated pack...

 

This has nothing to do with swing modes or avatar control. This old idea, graphically spruced up just today but nevertheless incubated quite some time ago would come into play right at the start when players create a new profile. It's something I always wanted my golf game to ask of me and it would allow players to express their individual preferences a bit more. It's quite self explanatory, so here it is:

 

playerprofile_zps6ad3ecf7.jpg

 

Again, slowly: There is a maximum of 200 possible points in this example, but the player will always only have 100 to distribute. And no +5 gloves or magic underwear or +10 spin wedges, nu-uh! Devs have already commited themselves to rule this out. It's a maximum of 100 for everybody - and that's that. 

Players would have to try things out, compromise, see what works best for them. They also can select, further above, a natural shot shape, fade, draw or straight, either high, low or regular. The high fade is my own natural shape, but perhaps I might want to find out what it feels to play with a low draw.

It's important that the values are quite widely spread. A 0 power drive would reach, say 210 yds, a 50 power drive 310 yds. And in the middle, around the mark of 25 (260yds, 2 yds per tick), the performance would be distinctly solid but uninspiring. So, a value from 0 to 5 or 10 should be set to give a disastrously bad result, an average of 20 to 30 would lead to some sort of "meh!" golf and anything from 40 to 50 would be quite fantastic.

If some wise guy tried to go for a 50 power/50 accuracy setting, that would mean that yes, he would hit his shots very long and very straight, but a sweet spot of 0 would be crazy hard to figure out, let alone hit, andwith 0 spin his ball would not get any grip or bite on the ground, whizzing around like crazy. No chance for romance: Such a lopsided setting must be impossible to play.

With power and sweet spot at 50 and accuracy and spin at 0, he would hit long shots reliably, but never ever get a straight shot flying at the target. And no spin for reliable distance control. 

Whichever way you cut it: Some sort of middling setup works best, and if you feel like playing risky, you will get few rewards and quite a lot of punishment. My own settings try to be clever: By setting a high fade, truly my own natural shot path, I should need less spin than a natural low fader since my shots land more steeply/softly. So maybe I can forfeit on the spin and invest more into distance and accuracy?...

Just a few buttons and selections - but quite a lot of possible permutations...

 

Such a profile with skill points could also be nucleus of a possible carreer mode. Beginners start out at, say, as Amateurs with 50 points and play from the short tees to slowly work their ways up the ranks and gain 50 additional skill points by facing a series of challenges, tourneys, matches etc, reaching Pro Status at 100.

Or at 120 or 150... of course, this are rough ideas and made up numbers. Perhaps we need to up the skills maximum from 100/200 to 120/200 and generally we would need to find a decent balance. I'm not at all saying this must be pursued at all, I just wish that some thought went into such a proposition to add a little bit of oomph, that's all.


>>>>>>> Ka-Boom!





• Mulligan Municipal • Willow Heath • Pommeroy • Karen • Five Sisters • Xaxnax Borealis • Aroha • Prison Puttˆ

• The Upchuck   The Shogun  • Black Swan (•)

 

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#85 Davefevs

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 08:21 PM

K11 - this is along similar lines to something I posted a while back.

The concept of setting a shape (hook thru straight thru slice) is something I like. Take your example (and I know Teddy is talking no click skill) that you hit a high fade. On still days your option to hit that high soft landing fade into a right sided pin would have you very excited. On another day, this time windy, and the pin is cut left, your risk/ reward strategy will dictate where you aim your shot. Course management starts to come into play and so does the wind direction. That long, tough par four into the wind may have you cursing your swing guru that grooved your high fade when you could do with a low draw/hook!

Now let's get onto 'snap'.

So default high fade.....miss the snap on the right (slice side) is more forgiving than missing it on the hook side.

However you're chasing the lead and you really need to hit a draw....missing the snap on your weaker swing type is even less forgiving.

Hope the above makes a bit of sense.

#86 Ted_Ball

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 03:59 AM

shimonko you are perfectly correct. We stroke through the ball at impact and therefore the backswing is a very important part of a golf swing - probably the most important part. If you haven't got the clubhead into an ideal position at transition (with cadence) then no amount of wrist cocking, strength, weight transference will compensate and will result in a less than ideal result. It is a strange thing when hitting a stationary ball that taking the club away is more important than bringing it towards the ball. I agree completely that the bottom click (at impact) is unintuitive and the thing I mainly focused on in my opposition to a click control. 
 
When I dissected a 3-click swing earlier and compared it to a no-click (or more correctly 1-click) system I came to the conclusion that the first click of the 3-click and my system were the same. The 3-click adds a click at transition (could probably be superfluous) and a click at impact (ugh). I'm assuming you favour a TruSwing mouse-slide system from what you are saying and your references to acceleration. Just maybe there can be a better and more intuitive form of TruSwing (which in its favour eliminates the click at impact). The mouse slide could be married to part of the swing (transition and acceleration from transition) but not trying to replicate the whole swing. That's what I loathe about the normal TruSwing.
 
I'm tossing around in my head something to do with the mouse married to the hands!!!? The clubhead, in that case, follows the hands and we wouldn't have that strange feeling of trying, with a mouse, to hit a ball with a clubhead. Let's face it - we hold the other end of the stick. That would surely give that feel of acceleration by the whipping action of a club. Hmmm....
 
I'll try and illustrate that with an animation a bit later.


#87 Ted_Ball

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 04:23 AM

The Member for Willow Heath should be commended for releasing his ideas on skill allocation. A picture is worth a thousand words. The reason I like your idea is that it would push a golf game in the direction of diversification and variety. It is essential that we move away from the horrible sameness of the golf that we experienced in TWO and especially in WGT. 

 

You have worked out a pretty cool system that's hard to be critical of. Because of the allocation system and the necessity to compromise among skills then it has the potential to keep the scoring within a realistic spectrum. 



#88 Ted_Ball

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 04:33 AM

Yeah Davefevs. I like that scenario of coming upon a situation that suits your Natural Shot and ones that don't and having to adjust your strategies accordingly. That also contributes to keeping the scoring realistic in that you can't just plonk your ball exactly where you want to like previous games.


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#89 Kablammo11

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 06:01 AM

I most certainly felt elation IRL when the approach to the pin suited my natural shape - and dread when it didn't. That was a difference like day and night... Let's also remind ourselves that the natural shot is much more of a factor in the mid-irons to woods range, whereas short irons and wedges are almost impervious to it.

I forgot to add, with my example, that players should be able to go back to this profile and change and tweak it any time they want to (except during a round of golf or a tournament, of course). Perhaps some players might even develop a few different profiles which they can select depending on the course they are playing, long or short, large or small greens, narrow or wide fairways...  In such a case, the playing profile would be the equivalent of the race car setup in a racing game... Me, I would most likely go with only one profile, the one that works best for me no matter what.


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>>>>>>> Ka-Boom!





• Mulligan Municipal • Willow Heath • Pommeroy • Karen • Five Sisters • Xaxnax Borealis • Aroha • Prison Puttˆ

• The Upchuck   The Shogun  • Black Swan (•)

 

<<<<<


#90 shimonko

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 06:47 AM

 

shimonko you are perfectly correct. We stroke through the ball at impact and therefore the backswing is a very important part of a golf swing - probably the most important part. If you haven't got the clubhead into an ideal position at transition (with cadence) then no amount of wrist cocking, strength, weight transference will compensate and will result in a less than ideal result. It is a strange thing when hitting a stationary ball that taking the club away is more important than bringing it towards the ball. 

No - Club forward is more important. Furyk, Nicklaus, Darcy (Eamon), Perry, Kuchar... - very different backswings and positions at the top, but drop in to remarkably similar positions after transition where they unleash in nearly identical fashions. 



#91 Ted_Ball

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 09:26 AM

Yes but you are picking out exceptions. You wouldn't teach someone Jim Furyk's swing would you? For the common man - the people who haven't spent hours and hours on the practice fairway honing their swings to compensate for their exotic swings - to persist with a 'ragged' swing is suicide. When an occasional golfer hits a beautiful shot with an exotic swing I congratulate them. To myself I say, "their next shot will be in the bushes" and invariably I'm right.

 

What was wrong with Jack's backswing by the way?  Ben Hogan's "secret" was simply a wrist movement at transition but that was only to compensate for his extremely flat backswing. And probably more to do with his stature and having to find power from his small frame. Nevertheless, his backswing was like clockwork. If his backswing was less than consistent he would not have been the champion he was. He practiced more than anyone in his time to develop that clockwork swing and that repetition, that repeatability was because of his BACKSWING!!. The Hogan "waggle" was to set in his mind his backswing.



#92 shimonko

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 12:37 PM

Not exceptions but extremes to illustrate backswing positioning isn't that important. They are not freaks of nature, they do nothing anatomically unachievable by others, they just discovered what allowed them to 'get in the slot' the best and kept it rather than trying to look pretty or caving into swing gurus.
 
 
Furyk's swing took no more work to develop or maintain that anyone else's. Indeed probably less as he's working with his body, not forcing it into textbook ideals or the latest fad.
 
 
Nothing wrong with Jack's swing or any of them. I mentioned Jack because of his 'radical' flying right elbow and lifted heel at the top. Teaching 1000 beginners the idolized perfect parallel, zero wrist cup, club down the line at the top position might give the instructor more successes, but forcing anyone person into an average is ignorant.
 
 
'Backswing was like clockwork': exactly, and why I mentioned the backswing being important for cadence and repeatability. 


#93 AndyJumbo

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 01:45 PM

Hello Golfers,

Today i've read a lot of good things in here but that video with the approach getting the lip-out is so real, isn't it?

Would be so good to play in there with the new PG game.

Cheers all



#94 Ted_Ball

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 09:38 PM

Well thank you AndyJumbo. It's the 17th hole at a place called Branson Creek in the States somewhere. It's really just a very high res real photo from Google Images to use as a background and simply a bit of a joke about something way back sometime...

 

BUT!!.....

 

....lately I have been secretly working on Ted Ball's Putting Simulator; LIP OUT!  I'm currently getting close to the end of my home university course. It is quite a steep learning curve with the program I'm learning (as Unity students have no doubt been through or up). I guess a steep learning curve is appropriate for my mountain climbing game - Ted Ball's Ascension; HEAD IN THE CLOUDS!

 

The program I'm using is Blender. It's open source and mainly used for modelling stuff but includes a neat little game engine which will at least allow me to whack a ball with a putter along a nicely rendered green. I'm modelling my White Ice putter today while Mrs Clatterbang is at work. I'm seriously thinking of 1st person view (eyes to hole for the line and then eyes down to ball and putter to angle putter for aiming and stroke [no grids, no HUD, aim just like in real life Gdi] and then eyes following ball to unlucky lip out) and all based on the famous Jack crouch.



#95 Ted_Ball

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 02:14 PM

Everybody relax...

 

TGC is a dog's breakfast (which is exactly what I thought when I first saw it a long time ago - and before issues came up of melting vid cards, graphics failures, putting frustrations, dreadful user courses, complete lack of MP, edging and so on and so forth)

 

                            ....so relax. No competition there. Carry on at your own pace devs.



#96 AndyJumbo

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 06:42 AM

mehhh !!!

you wrote for days !

however i read some interesting things and tips from each other...

Thank you all



#97 Jim Boags

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 02:04 AM

Everybody relax...

 

TGC is a dog's breakfast (which is exactly what I thought when I first saw it a long time ago - and before issues came up of melting vid cards, graphics failures, putting frustrations, dreadful user courses, complete lack of MP, edging and so on and so forth)

 

                            ....so relax. No competition there. Carry on at your own pace devs.

Teddy, i like you. Your a fellow aussie and I can remember the RL Teddy Ball.

But I'm not here to talk about that. Ted, you've been writting for weeks here. I haven't written that much in the last 40 years. i don't get enough time in the day to read all ya posts but I get through some of them. I actually don't live far from you, maybe 4hours, hell i can nearly pee that far. Next time i'm down your way, should take ya to the pub, we'll be there for days, I won't get too many words in but at very least I'll have a beer in front of me.

Jim Boags


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#98 Ted_Ball

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 12:27 AM

Well thank you Jim. It's nice to have one person here that likes me. 

 

I'm probably the worst conversationalist in Australia. There might be a small window between the sixth and tenth beers when I'm urbane, eloquent and loquacious but before and after - and without a thesaurus - I'm either too quiet or incomprehensible. As for my long posts, well I'm at work when I write them. What else am I going to be doing?

 

But it's good to talk to another aussie. I've even done time in Qld, twelve years living on acreage up near Tin Can Bay. Great part of the world and, in those days, not many people. You'd be safe sleeping in the middle of the main road. Perfect.

 

If you know Ted Ball then you are showing your age Jim. They were the best days of Australian golf when there would be a tournament on telly every weekend through summer. It was so entertaining watching guys like Ian Stanley, Billy Dunk, Roger Davis, Bob Shearer and Stewy Ginn. Jack would come out and Gary Player too. I played in a schoolboy tournament "against" Jack Newton Jr up in the Blue Mountains once. He shot a 67 and I shot 113. He probably had a caddy. Our golfing career paths diverged at that point. Then there were those big tourneys when Craig Parry or Peter Senior would take on Greg Norman on the last day and, through sheer will, beat him on the third hole of the play-off. It seemed to happen every year and was absolutely absorbing. Now some dude in a suit who has never played sport decides we should be watching netball on a Sunday. 

 

Take care Jim. Can I call you James?



#99 shimonko

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 12:43 AM

Heh I know of the Ted Ball legend and I aren't old :) And Billy Dunk, just about every course I'd play had Billy Dunk holding the course record.

Loved the 67/113 story! 



#100 Jim Boags

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 10:43 AM

Well thank you Jim. It's nice to have one person here that likes me. 

 

I'm probably the worst conversationalist in Australia. There might be a small window between the sixth and tenth beers when I'm urbane, eloquent and loquacious but before and after - and without a thesaurus - I'm either too quiet or incomprehensible. As for my long posts, well I'm at work when I write them. What else am I going to be doing?

 

But it's good to talk to another aussie. I've even done time in Qld, twelve years living on acreage up near Tin Can Bay. Great part of the world and, in those days, not many people. You'd be safe sleeping in the middle of the main road. Perfect.

 

If you know Ted Ball then you are showing your age Jim. They were the best days of Australian golf when there would be a tournament on telly every weekend through summer. It was so entertaining watching guys like Ian Stanley, Billy Dunk, Roger Davis, Bob Shearer and Stewy Ginn. Jack would come out and Gary Player too. I played in a schoolboy tournament "against" Jack Newton Jr up in the Blue Mountains once. He shot a 67 and I shot 113. He probably had a caddy. Our golfing career paths diverged at that point. Then there were those big tourneys when Craig Parry or Peter Senior would take on Greg Norman on the last day and, through sheer will, beat him on the third hole of the play-off. It seemed to happen every year and was absolutely absorbing. Now some dude in a suit who has never played sport decides we should be watching netball on a Sunday. 

 

Take care Jim. Can I call you James?

You may call me James, you may, what a premium idea.

Jim


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