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#161 Sup?

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 12:22 AM

Greensboronclion, on 25 May 2016 - 12:17 AM, said:

Really? When I quit playing Links 15 months ago you were luck to get 50 players in the PLSA event each week. We folded both the Harbour Club and Off the Stick due to lack of play. Links is holding on by a thread as there is nowhere to go and your comparing it to this title right now is ludicrous. This game is the best golf sim on the market and to keep it going we have to pay or it dies at he same death as the former titles so don't tell me it's not Apples to oranges.

 

Seriously?  15 months ago?  LOL!  I'm talking within the first couple years of it's release!  You do know that you were playing a 12 year old game right?  Surprised there were even 50 players playing.  So yeah... apples to oranges... or should I dig out the first Doom and compare it to the latest FPS games?



#162 Buck

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 12:26 AM

Andrew and Mike : Do not listen to people complaining about paying for things. The majority are not like that.

We all just want the best golf game out there (PG) to keep getting developed and have a vibrant future.

The "everyone on a Season Pass" model is the best.
Then we all have the latest game and access to all courses and features at all times and multiplayer will be full of people, etc, etc.

Roll with that! (that's my vote anyhow)
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#163 Greensboronclion

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 12:30 AM

Sup?, on 25 May 2016 - 12:22 AM, said:

Seriously?  15 months ago?  LOL!  I'm talking within the first couple years of it's release!  You do know that you were playing a 12 year old game right?  Surprised there were even 50 players playing.  So yeah... apples to oranges... or should I dig out the first Doom and compare it to the latest FPS games?





Yes I do know it was a 12 year old game as I was there those years.

#164 axe360

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 12:31 AM

I'm with you Andrew.. :)


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Done with designing.

Released Courses: Real

The Golf Club @ Dove Mnt. AZ

Aronimink PA

Amana Colonies Iowa

Fictional:

The Grinder Anytown U.S.A.

 

 

                   


#165 FreeBolt

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 12:35 AM

I am for what ever helps keep the doors open, monthly superscription / season pass. What ever they come up with, will be fine I am sure.



#166 axe360

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 12:46 AM

Yep and I think every one of us should get behind Andrew and Mike and have faith that they are going to do what's best for Everyone..

JNPG could use everyone's support right now and if you don't like the final draft, then you can decline but right now, I really think the entire community should get behind them and see what happens...

 

Peace


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Done with designing.

Released Courses: Real

The Golf Club @ Dove Mnt. AZ

Aronimink PA

Amana Colonies Iowa

Fictional:

The Grinder Anytown U.S.A.

 

 

                   


#167 Greensboronclion

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 12:53 AM

axe360, on 25 May 2016 - 12:46 AM, said:

Yep and I think every one of us should get behind Andrew and Mike and have faith that they are going to do what's best for Everyone..
JNPG could use everyone's support right now and if you don't like the final draft, then you can decline but right now, I really think the entire community should get behind them and see what happens...
 
Peace





I 2nd the motion.
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#168 JoeF

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 12:53 AM

Just give it the right marketing spin:

"Club membership and green fees" - $5.00/month

 

It is a golf sim after all.   :)


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#169 Buck

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 12:54 AM

JoeF, on 25 May 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

Just give it the right marketing spin:
"Club membership and green fees" - $5.00/month
 
It is a golf sim after all.   :)


This!

#170 axe360

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 01:04 AM

JoeF, on 25 May 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

Just give it the right marketing spin:

"Club membership and green fees" - $5.00/month

 

It is a golf sim after all.   :)

 

5bucks a mo. or  50 bucks a year... I gave us a slight discount for paying for a year upfront... ;)


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Done with designing.

Released Courses: Real

The Golf Club @ Dove Mnt. AZ

Aronimink PA

Amana Colonies Iowa

Fictional:

The Grinder Anytown U.S.A.

 

 

                   


#171 rolfw

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 01:18 AM

Course Downloads has some 30,000 members so many are still playing TW 08. Based on the number of members on this forum and  steam sales figures  there is a good chance more people are playing TW 08.  A  good question is why has not this game  sold more?  



#172 BaggerVance

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 01:22 AM

TGC doesn't have a season pass and seems to be surviving just fine..EA Sports probably won't come out with another golf game for a long time with the Rory Mcilroy flop.  So the only realy competition is with tgc. With the tgc you can buy and own the game for simulator owners. Not many skytrak users have pulled the trigger on PG over TGC for this very reason, over graphics and gameplay.  Most want to buy and own, not rent and lease, etc. 

 

Course forge could be a different game and separate charge because honestly, you'll end up with thousands of user created courses of crap like tgc. At least if you paid for it, you might be the type to learn how to use it and make interesting designs.

 

I'm here to support the game, bought into the early access and simulator season pass along with the bethesda course. Today's thread has me worried what happens if I don't want to invest in any further dlc? Doesn't seem clear cut. At least with tgc, I could buy and own and if hb studios comes out with 2.0 or whatever I still can play my version...or sell it to someone else.



#173 RobV

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 01:23 AM

Vernon520, on 24 May 2016 - 5:08 PM, said:

Getting something for nothing no matter how much time and effort somebody else has spent on producing a product not to mention cost.

If this is you, then it's time for you to start putting your hand in your pocket and to start to change your attitude.

PP is a business not a charity. Be a part of it  and stop whining or go some where else. No one is forcing anyone to pay for anything.

With this attitude, this game will only have a handful of diehards left to support it...  its bad enough that there are a minimal amount of people playing the game... go check the Steam stats, they are not that pretty.  


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#174 axe360

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 01:28 AM

rolfw, on 25 May 2016 - 01:18 AM, said:

Course Downloads has some 30,000 members so many are still playing TW 08. Based on the number of members on this forum and  steam sales figures  there is a good chance more people are playing TW 08.  A  good question is why has not this game  sold more?  

 

Well their first golf game came out way way back in 1990 and I'm sure it was in production a few years before that, so in all fairness, PG just started in 2012 approx. as far as I know..

But they did have a kick ass game.. I know, I played it and designed for it, from 05/06 to date...


Done with designing.

Released Courses: Real

The Golf Club @ Dove Mnt. AZ

Aronimink PA

Amana Colonies Iowa

Fictional:

The Grinder Anytown U.S.A.

 

 

                   


#175 RobV

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 01:32 AM

Acrilix, on 24 May 2016 - 11:10 PM, said:

Definitely the best way to deal with the free course issue, and encourage people to want to upgrade rather than have to.

Or divide the community into many different factions... can you imagine the pain tournament organizers are going to feel to try to organize that mess?  



#176 Richard

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 01:35 AM

rolfw, on 25 May 2016 - 01:18 AM, said:

Course Downloads has some 30,000 members so many are still playing TW 08. Based on the number of members on this forum and  steam sales figures  there is a good chance more people are playing TW 08.  A  good question is why has not this game  sold more?  

 

That statement has no bearing on how many people are actively playing TW08.  APCD which is a Links 2003 site that runs weekly tournaments, one for the U.S. Tour and one for the European Tour has 16,638 members. At this point, they are having a tough time having enough signups to run both tournaments. Here on this site, there are 3,796 members. How many of them own the game?

My point is that the membership totals for these sites are meaningless at this point. The only thing that counts is the participation numbers.


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#177 clubcaptain

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 01:41 AM

Andrew, on 24 May 2016 - 11:29 PM, said:

 

When we were discussing the season pass at $5 a month including a free downloadable course each month everyone complained that we were gouging the player base and taking advantage of the designers who provided courses for free.  They said they would be much happier supporting PG by purchasing the courses as they came out and any other items in the pro shop.

 

When we started to add items into the pro shop everyone complained that we were going to gouge the paying customers by leaning on Microstransactions "Death to Microtransactions and DLC"  They all said mcicrotransaction items should be earned by playing the game which effectively means they should be free

 

The other reality is that every golf game that has released a free designer for their game has gone the way of the DODO..  People purchase the game and then never purchase official content because there is always going to be so much free content from the community who will never have to abide by the licensing rules we as a gaming company have to abide by.  There is a reason that TW08 was the last PC version.  EA realised that letting people design their own courses means that people will sometimes not even upgrade because in many cases all the courses that were built for 08 will not run on 09 version.  This is why the idea of making the 2015 version of PG always play 2015 courses will not work.  

 

As a result the game does not generate enough ongoing revenue to survive and so eventually it winds down it is not updated and the back end ceases to function, the multiplayer stops working and eventually the community dies.  This is what happened to Links.  We really believed in the Season Pass concept for User Made Courses because it would have solved all the issues and would have meant a new game for everyone each year without ever having to purchase a new game.  Imagine instead of buying the new version of TW each year and getting the same 12 courses you got a new game each year on the latest gaming engine release with ever expanding features without ever having to buy a new game.  But everyone hated it so we relented.  But the need for it never went away

 

The community who decried the season pass decided to purchase a couple of hundred copies of Bethesda.  Thats it.  So it became clear to us that if we listened to all the people who said just make it all free and we will purchase everything you throw at us we would never survive.  

 

Yes I agree that what we are doing is saying that you need to upgrade the game each year if you want to continue to play content created by the community.   If you dont want to support the game by upgrading each year to the latest version of the game then that is your choice.   You will still be able to play all the courses that came with the game you bought as well as any official course releases you purchased.  Thats pretty much what you got when you purchased a Tiger woods game on a console.   

 

We have learnt the hard way that if we try to please the community who want us to deliver everything for free we will never win.  We are not a gaming studio who can just move on the the next title and confine JNPG to the discount bin.  We are a golf company.  We will be continuing to develop and grow the game along with our broadcast business and everything else golf.

 

We know we cant win, we have to find a revenue model that works to make the game survive.  We have lots of competing avenues for our development time from Simulators to Consoles to our Broadcasting services which are all expanding.  It will not survive if we rely on people to purchase DLC and Courses.  Of course without Course Forge people will always purchase new content.  But we also wanted to give people probably the most comprehensive course design tool ever released for PC.  

We have at least at this point communicated a worst case scenario and if it pans out this way no one will be able to say we did not communicate it to people.  If events turn out differently and the game does well and DLC does well and Career Mode is popular and so on and we do our job right we may just be in a position to just release a milestone release without turning off anything.
 
We can then always regress to a position where we just allow people to continue to play the content regardless of whether they get the DLC.  It gives us the option to just say thanks.  But if we go into this the same failed way that every other PC Golf Game company has done it in the past expecting a different result we all know what will probably happen.

 

This misses the point that even course creators wouldn't be able to play their own creations. Just plain daft.

 

This must have passed m by 'cos I don't remember your conclusion is what actually happened. People will pay for DLC that they think is worth the outlay. It's not a case of all or nothing. Again, just plain daft.

 

The reality is that there may well be lots of free content produced (courses) but on past form with other games a lot will be crap and people won't be interested. A number of class designers will rise to the top of the pile and their offerings will always be worth considering but not every time. So the "flood" of new content (courses) will not be as extreme as might be feared, especially if you have a "lite" version of CF.

 

Then why didn't you stick to your guns for goodness sake. You feel you were right all along so stick with it. If you relented you must have thought there was merit in the arguments against because  otherwise to relent would be just plain daft.

 

Can't you concede that Bethesda doesn't look that different to other official courses. Just because its official doesn't necessarily mean it has a divine right to sell  in any great numbers. Why not try something more original. All free !! That's not what I see.  I see people will pay for the right deal. No-one wants everything for free. That's just plain daft. And while we're at it take my £100 (minimum) that I keep offering. The only proviso is that you don't try to keep anything back from me, overtly or covertly. However, if you think that's a bad idea then tell me why. I'm trying to throw money at you. You don't want it !

 

Yes, you can win. You're just not aiming high enough where revenue is concerned and you need to abandon this idea of keeping things back. I don't think Steve Kerr has been saying "we can't win" and  the Raptors wouldn't say "we can't win".

 

Winning is relative. You won't win every one over to a particular line of argument but if you win enough over to make the game survive and make a living then you will have won.

 

So take my £100 plus.

 

I like the sound of that.

 

Take heart Andrew. I believe in what I've said that the community is receptive to paying a fair price . The only dissent you are seeing is this clinging to the notion that something has to be taken away. You can see that the bulk of the discussion is about that issue. Move away from that and you will have cracked it - all other things being equal.

 

The only legitimate reason that something can be taken away is that it is made redundant because the core game changes so greatly that the content in question just will not run any longer.

 

Anyhow, we're really all in the same boat pulling on the same oars trying to get to the same destination. We can do it  :)

 

Hope I got my colours properly aligned  :rolleyes:


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#178 Acrilix

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 01:56 AM

Yes, let's bring in subscriptions!! .... and watch the current number of players drop to 30% of what it is now, overnight.

Let's completely kill the game by bringing in subscriptions.

:wacko:

 

I'm going to bed.

Hopefully I'll wake up to find that this was all just part of some crazy dream.


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#179 mebby

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 02:02 AM

Acrilix, on 25 May 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

Yes, let's bring in subscriptions!! .... and watch the current number of players drop to 30% of what it is now, overnight.

Let's completely kill the game by bringing in subscriptions.

:wacko:

 

I'm going to bed.

Hopefully I'll wake up to find that this was all just part of some crazy dream.

So what do you propose exactly?  PP can't win.  They propose subscriptions and everyone goes ape shit.  They propose annual/major update costs and people go ape shit.  Of course everyone wants "free" but nothing worth having is free.


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#180 axe360

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 02:06 AM

Hmmm, I subscribe to my newspaper, my Internet, my T.V,, my telephone, my cellphone, etc. etc. etc.  Seems to work pretty good so far.. :)

 

I'm sticking by what I suggested earlier... Go Andrew, Go Mike, go JNPG...


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Done with designing.

Released Courses: Real

The Golf Club @ Dove Mnt. AZ

Aronimink PA

Amana Colonies Iowa

Fictional:

The Grinder Anytown U.S.A.

 

 

                   





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