241 replies to this topic

[mebby]

Jperkules, on 24 May 2016 - 5:42 PM, said:

Although I don't agree with the model that produces the above stated fact, that is causing such an uproar.
I do agree with Andrew's posts at Steam which basically say the following:
1) Lots of time has been put into the Course Forge development, and this will be released for free. Instead of charging for it where only course developers will pay, PP has decided to have everyone share in this cost through this business model.
2) This is a way to ensure that PP can continue to develop the game, and ensure it doesn't end up like Links and TW online, which are now abandonware.
(As a side note, I'm just baffled by the different amounts of opinions, misreadings, information pulled out of nowhere, claims of Pay to Win, etc etc, that the general public can generate)

I'm fine with this. But it's really no different than the subscription based model. The timing is the only difference.

I think it's obvious at this point that the revenue stream needs to be tied (at least partially) to user created content. And it makes zero sense to charge the ones creating that content so I agree with the direction that PP has chosen.

But hopefully this is the final structure with no more waffling and changes in direction.

[Ted_Ball]

Harvester, on 24 May 2016 - 10:16 PM, said:

I think something very important is being overlooked.  Andrew stated earlier today (on steam?) that sales of the new golf coarse was not good.

I have a feeling that those poor sales are what drove the decision to go with this current system.

 

This is something that has concerned me. I bought Bethesda even though I didn't really want to. I was suckered in to it. I've played it once and I was thinking there was nothing about the graphics that made it stand out from anything else. I would be very reluctant to pay $5.95 again for a one-off course. I would rather pay $60 for a full game (which has overwhelmingly good replay value - and which makes it stand out against any other games apart from games like World of Tanks or racing games) that included extensive content. 

 

There is a huge potential market out there for heaven's sake. South Korea, China, India are discovering golf like never before. 

[LeazesNDR]

Harvester, on 24 May 2016 - 10:16 PM, said:

I think something very important is being overlooked.  Andrew stated earlier today (on steam?) that sales of the new golf coarse was not good.
I have a feeling that those poor sales are what drove the decision to go with this current system.

I bet the sales of Bethesda from the regular PP forum users were decent. The problem seems to be attracting the casual gamers who will probably
be put off buying JNPG because of all the inconsistent messages and statements with regards to pricing and what a actual direction this game is taking considering it was fully released in an incomplete state without course forge, avatars, career mode etc. Yes, us "devotees" know that these things will be coming sooner rather than later but
Perfect Parallel seem have left themselves open to criticism about their business plans on several occasions now.

[DivotMaker]

Richard, on 24 May 2016 - 9:33 PM, said:

The link below leads to a Steam post related to this thread. In my opinion, this guy has the correct solution to the problem. I hope that PP seriously considers this and we move forward quickly. 
 
http://steamcommunit...tscn=1464124340

Agreed!

[Crow357]

So, Version 2 comes out.

No one buys the game.

Money dries up

Server gets shut down.

No more PG.

[Acrilix]

Richard, on 24 May 2016 - 9:33 PM, said:

The link below leads to a Steam post related to this thread. In my opinion, this guy has the correct solution to the problem. I hope that PP seriously considers this and we move forward quickly. 

 

http://steamcommunit...tscn=1464124340

 

Definitely the best way to deal with the free course issue, and encourage people to want to upgrade rather than have to.

[BaggerVance]

How would this work for simulator users who pay yearly to access courses? Forced to upgrade in order to keep sim play going with newest version?

[mebby]

Ted_Ball, on 24 May 2016 - 10:43 PM, said:

This is something that has concerned me. I bought Bethesda even though I didn't really want to. I was suckered in to it. I've played it once and I was thinking there was nothing about the graphics that made it stand out from anything else. I would be very reluctant to pay $5.95 again for a one-off course. I would rather pay $60 for a full game (which has overwhelmingly good replay value - and which makes it stand out against any other games apart from games like World of Tanks or racing games) that included extensive content.

There is a huge potential market out there for heaven's sake. South Korea, China, India are discovering golf like never before.

If I'm being honest... there's nothing overly special about Bethesda in comparison to the current crop of user created content. And this makes their decision around the planned direction make a ton of sense. Official courses, so far, aren't showing anything uniquely special compared to user created courses. And in computer golf, course offerings are king.

[zmax - sim]

BaggerVance, on 24 May 2016 - 11:13 PM, said:

How would this work for simulator users who pay yearly to access courses? Forced to upgrade in order to keep sim play going with newest version?

Andrew will correct me, but my understanding is your annual sim pass of 250 includes upgrades to the game. 

[Andrew]

When we were discussing the season pass at $5 a month including a free downloadable course each month everyone complained that we were gouging the player base and taking advantage of the designers who provided courses for free.  They said they would be much happier supporting PG by purchasing the courses as they came out and any other items in the pro shop.

 

When we started to add items into the pro shop everyone complained that we were going to gouge the paying customers by leaning on Microstransactions "Death to Microtransactions and DLC"  They all said mcicrotransaction items should be earned by playing the game which effectively means they should be free

 

The other reality is that every golf game that has released a free designer for their game has gone the way of the DODO..  People purchase the game and then never purchase official content because there is always going to be so much free content from the community who will never have to abide by the licensing rules we as a gaming company have to abide by.  There is a reason that TW08 was the last PC version.  EA realised that letting people design their own courses means that people will sometimes not even upgrade because in many cases all the courses that were built for 08 will not run on 09 version.  This is why the idea of making the 2015 version of PG always play 2015 courses will not work.  

 

As a result the game does not generate enough ongoing revenue to survive and so eventually it winds down it is not updated and the back end ceases to function, the multiplayer stops working and eventually the community dies.  This is what happened to Links.  We really believed in the Season Pass concept for User Made Courses because it would have solved all the issues and would have meant a new game for everyone each year without ever having to purchase a new game.  Imagine instead of buying the new version of TW each year and getting the same 12 courses you got a new game each year on the latest gaming engine release with ever expanding features without ever having to buy a new game.  But everyone hated it so we relented.  But the need for it never went away

 

The community who decried the season pass decided to purchase a couple of hundred copies of Bethesda.  Thats it.  So it became clear to us that if we listened to all the people who said just make it all free and we will purchase everything you throw at us we would never survive.  

 

Yes I agree that what we are doing is saying that you need to upgrade the game each year if you want to continue to play content created by the community.   If you dont want to support the game by upgrading each year to the latest version of the game then that is your choice.   You will still be able to play all the courses that came with the game you bought as well as any official course releases you purchased.  Thats pretty much what you got when you purchased a Tiger woods game on a console.   

 

We have learnt the hard way that if we try to please the community who want us to deliver everything for free we will never win.  We are not a gaming studio who can just move on the the next title and confine JNPG to the discount bin.  We are a golf company.  We will be continuing to develop and grow the game along with our broadcast business and everything else golf.

 

We know we cant win, we have to find a revenue model that works to make the game survive.  We have lots of competing avenues for our development time from Simulators to Consoles to our Broadcasting services which are all expanding.  It will not survive if we rely on people to purchase DLC and Courses.  Of course without Course Forge people will always purchase new content.  But we also wanted to give people probably the most comprehensive course design tool ever released for PC.  

We have at least at this point communicated a worst case scenario and if it pans out this way no one will be able to say we did not communicate it to people.  If events turn out differently and the game does well and DLC does well and Career Mode is popular and so on and we do our job right we may just be in a position to just release a milestone release without turning off anything.  

 

We can then always regress to a position where we just allow people to continue to play the content regardless of whether they get the DLC.  It gives us the option to just say thanks.  But if we go into this the same failed way that every other PC Golf Game company has done it in the past expecting a different result we all know what will probably happen.

[Greensboronclion]

Andrew I cant believe that only 200 copies of Bethesda were sold it is an awesome course.  As for the rest of what you said Plus 1 and well said.

[Shimvolski]

Keep up the good work Andrew! Thanks for your response and I can't wait for Muirfield Village!

[Buck]

Andrew, on 24 May 2016 - 11:29 PM, said:

We have learnt the hard way that if we try to please the community who want us to deliver everything for free we will never win. 

 

I would honestly like to know who this comment is directed at...

 

I can't speak for everyone, but I know I absolutely *NEVER* was in the camp of "wanting things for free" and have completely reversed my personal position on the Season Pass.  In fact I vehemently defend software developers on a variety of forums around the internet.  All I ever said was I would prefer the option to pay for an "annual pass" as opposed to monthly dinging.  Just a personal preference is all.

 

I am absolutely dying for you to bring back the Season Pass concept as originally planned, because what is being proposed instead is just a mess of confusion for the average person/buyer.

 

By locking out user created courses if you choose not to keep upgrading, you are "forcing" upgrades essentially.

 

Fine.  I have no issue with that - But why not just go full in and make the game $5/month, get everything and that's "it".   I'm totally cool with that.  I see no real value in allowing people to stay on the "old version" which probably won't work for anything online and will get chopped back to the original content if you stop paying.  Just skip that.  Let's go with full Season Pass for all.

[Buck]

Let's just dump all the confusion and go with the Season Pass concept.  

 

You’re either a paying member (after a free month trial or something) or you’re not and you don’t play the game.

[nightowl]

Buck, on 24 May 2016 - 11:51 PM, said:

I would honestly like to know who this comment is directed at...
 
.

Me, too. I find that statement rather insulting. Not something I'd direct at my hard-core supporters. I hear all the blame directed at "the community" and no personal acceptance of responsibility. But maybe that's just me.

[Crow357]

I'm positive it's not directed at one person. I do remember the uproar of angry comments by many users at the mere suggestion that they pay for a season pass. It was so loud that PP scrapped the idea. Hell, I'd bet that half the negative Steam comments were from angry "I'll never pay for a season pass" people.

[Sup?]

Andrew, I see where you are coming from, but to compare TW08 or Links 2k3 to this game as far as popularity and actual game ownership (those that play this game) are so far off.  Those were HUGE titles and there were a lot of people playing them.  I could get into a MP game almost instantly with Links 2k3.  Nothing against you fella's... I for one would rather see this game prosper and have a HUGE player base, I play the hell out of this game and love it.  There is no bigger fan of your game than I, however comparing this game to the other titles is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

This game as it is now, as awesome as it is, reminds me of smaller indie titles that I have enjoyed in the past.  There just isn't the fan/player base in it's current state to be on the level of the other two titles mentioned.  As is, I will continue to support this game... to a point.  Personally for me, and yes this probably belongs in another thread, the 3 click meter is too clunky and not smooth enough to really compete with either 2 of the before mentioned titles.  I feel that has more to do with the Unity engine than anything.  I've played other games on the same engine and they all have the same lag/jittery feel.  

 

Anyway, I went a little far off the topic there.  I wish you guys nothing but success and look forward to your advancements and achievements.  

[mebby]

Andrew, on 24 May 2016 - 11:29 PM, said:

When we were discussing the season pass at $5 a month including a free downloadable course each month everyone complained that we were gouging the player base and taking advantage of the designers who provided courses for free. They said they would be much happier supporting PG by purchasing the courses as they came out and any other items in the pro shop.

When we started to add items into the pro shop everyone complained that we were going to gouge the paying customers by leaning on Microstransactions "Death to Microtransactions and DLC" They all said mcicrotransaction items should be earned by playing the game which effectively means they should be free

The other reality is that every golf game that has released a free designer for their game has gone the way of the DODO.. People purchase the game and then never purchase official content because there is always going to be so much free content from the community who will never have to abide by the licensing rules we as a gaming company have to abide by. There is a reason that TW08 was the last PC version. EA realised that letting people design their own courses means that people will sometimes not even upgrade because in many cases all the courses that were built for 08 will not run on 09 version. This is why the idea of making the 2015 version of PG always play 2015 courses will not work.

As a result the game does not generate enough ongoing revenue to survive and so eventually it winds down it is not updated and the back end ceases to function, the multiplayer stops working and eventually the community dies. This is what happened to Links. We really believed in the Season Pass concept for User Made Courses because it would have solved all the issues and would have meant a new game for everyone each year without ever having to purchase a new game. Imagine instead of buying the new version of TW each year and getting the same 12 courses you got a new game each year on the latest gaming engine release with ever expanding features without ever having to buy a new game. But everyone hated it so we relented. But the need for it never went away

The community who decried the season pass decided to purchase a couple of hundred copies of Bethesda. Thats it. So it became clear to us that if we listened to all the people who said just make it all free and we will purchase everything you throw at us we would never survive.

Yes I agree that what we are doing is saying that you need to upgrade the game each year if you want to continue to play content created by the community. If you dont want to support the game by upgrading each year to the latest version of the game then that is your choice. You will still be able to play all the courses that came with the game you bought as well as any official course releases you purchased. Thats pretty much what you got when you purchased a Tiger woods game on a console.

We have learnt the hard way that if we try to please the community who want us to deliver everything for free we will never win. We are not a gaming studio who can just move on the the next title and confine JNPG to the discount bin. We are a golf company. We will be continuing to develop and grow the game along with our broadcast business and everything else golf.

We know we cant win, we have to find a revenue model that works to make the game survive. We have lots of competing avenues for our development time from Simulators to Consoles to our Broadcasting services which are all expanding. It will not survive if we rely on people to purchase DLC and Courses. Of course without Course Forge people will always purchase new content. But we also wanted to give people probably the most comprehensive course design tool ever released for PC.
We have at least at this point communicated a worst case scenario and if it pans out this way no one will be able to say we did not communicate it to people. If events turn out differently and the game does well and DLC does well and Career Mode is popular and so on and we do our job right we may just be in a position to just release a milestone release without turning off anything.

We can then always regress to a position where we just allow people to continue to play the content regardless of whether they get the DLC. It gives us the option to just say thanks. But if we go into this the same failed way that every other PC Golf Game company has done it in the past expecting a different result we all know what will probably happen.

Very well said Andrew. I think perhaps the subscription idea was maybe a little too ahead of its time. Now that you guys have shown everyone the reality of the alternatives... kinda makes me wonder if we don't just go back to your subscription idea. I mean... that model just works. I think.you guys had the right idea to begin with.

I know I've been saying that you shouldn't keep waffling but... let's be honest, the subscription idea is golden.

[Greensboronclion]

[quote name="Sup?" post="97101" timestamp="1464134996"]Andrew, I see where you are coming from, but to compare TW08 or Links 2k3 to this game as far as popularity and actual game ownership (those that play this game) are so far off. Those were HUGE titles and there were a lot of people playing them. I could get into a MP game almost instantly with Links 2k3. Nothing against you fella's... I for one would rather see this game prosper and have a HUGE player base, I play the hell out of this game and love it. There is no bigger fan of your game than I, however comparing this game to the other titles is like comparing apples to oranges.

This game as it is now, as awesome as it is, reminds me of smaller indie titles that I have enjoyed in the past. There just isn't the fan/player base in it's current state to be on the level of the other two titles mentioned. As is, I will continue to support this game... to a point. Personally for me, and yes this probably belongs in another thread, the 3 click meter is too clunky and not smooth enough to really compete with either 2 of the before mentioned titles. I feel that has more to do with the Unity engine than anything. I've played other games on the same engine and they all have the same lag/jittery feel.
Anyway, I went a little far off the topic there. I wish you guys nothing but success and look forward to your advancements and achievements.
[/quo







Really? When I quit playing Links 15 months ago you were luck to get 50 players in the PLSA event each week. We folded both the Harbour Club and Off the Stick due to lack of play. Links is holding on by a thread as there is nowhere to go and your comparing it to this title right now is ludicrous. This game is the best golf sim on the market and to keep it going we have to pay or it dies at he same death as the former titles so don't tell me it's not Apples to oranges.

[LeazesNDR]

Andrew, on 24 May 2016 - 11:29 PM, said:

We have learnt the hard way that if we try to please the community who want us to deliver everything for free we will never win.


It will not survive if we rely on people to purchase DLC and Courses.

Whoa, that's a bit unfair, squire!
I dont see the vast majority of community members on this forum demanding stuff for free, the vast majority on this forum seem more than willing to support your company. People are just saying that things that were once available to you should not be taken away from you should you decide not to upgrade.
To be honest your problem seems to be attracting the more casual gamer to your product and taking away things that were once available will only leave you open to widespread criticism, especially on places like the Steam forums. If 100 free courses are available for version/phase 1 of the game, those 100 free courses should still be available should you not choose to upgrade to version 2/the milestone update of JNPG.