316 replies to this topic

[highfade]

This post is not to bitch and moan or knock the dev team.  I'm a huge fan of the POTENTIAL of this game but to be honest, in it's current state it just doesn't cut it.  The game is flawed at the very core. It's not about bugs or lack of features or whatever, it's about firing it up and play a realistic round of 18 holes and shooting a realistic score on a difficulty level you comfortable with. 

 

This opinion is mostly based on 3-Click but I think it apllies to all swing methods.  I've said right at the start of beta testing, lets first get the game to work from tee to green and once you have that fixed you just have to do it 18 times and you have yourself an enjoyable round. Well, with Perfect Golf it's not the case, e.g. At TourPro level, 3-Click, I teed it up for 18 holes on Merion and this is how it panned out:

 

 With my tee shots I'm a 8 handicapper, approach shots a 10, pitching a +5, chipping a 2, bunker play a +3, flopping a +5 and putting a +6.  So with that combo of skills I'm able shoot level par on a difficult course like Merion, surely all those skills should be brought into line under one handicap level.  It won't be too hard to balance it out and IMO time should be spent to get it right.

 

We have about 30 MOP, computer players, we want a career mode and we have online tours but that is all just lipstick for the pig.  Now we have a 3-click tour and I thought great, let's play... I could barely finish one round,  feels like TGC all over again. I still remember the excitement playing links tournaments over at APCDcourses, it was tense stuff trying to grind out a level par round.

 

With PG it's close to zero course management, just hit it as close to the green as you can, doesn't matter where, you'll up and down no problem. Now I have to start making my own rules like force myself to play the same shot that I would play IRL even if I know I can just flop it to within a feet of the hole.

 

 

On the positive side, Course Forge is brilliant and all that is left for me is designing and testing designs.  For me, in it's current state, PG is nothing more than a course testing APP.

 

 

What worries me most is that everyone just seems okay with this? Surely if you play golf in real life or watch the pro's play you have to agree. Now you get a post like this and I think whaaat? you played a realistic hole, I'm so jealous because that is next level rare.

http://www.perfectpa...ble-bogey-ever/

So this is a plea, come on guys, please fix this. Let's take the time and look at each shot type on each difficulty level with each swing method and tweak it till it's PERFECT. If I'm wrong about this, then I might have had a different expectation of a good golf sim/game.

 

 

[trailblazergolf]

well- certainly much food for thought--i'll be interested in replys from the dev's --and i love this game so make it good --lol

[fishwicket79]

No course management isn't correct,smashing the ball 80 yards from the green off the tee is no good.3 and 5 woods are needed my end.maybe you should try a different swing method.3 clickers dial in distances because it's all in front of you.try the controller,% swings needed😊

[Crow357]

Yeah, you really need to play another swing method.  3 click will never be a realistic swing, because all you can do is change the speed of the meter and how much a missed snap affects the ball.  I look at the pin position when I'm on the tee because I need to know the best angle to the flag.  Then I shape my shot using the mouse or the stick.  All you're doing is pressing a button and dial-a-distance with the meter.

[Greensboronclion]

I guess I just suck as I couldn't sniff par at Merion at Pro and I played the first three rounds at MS and the last at 3C.  To me its the other way around I just cant seem to score consistently at Pro level and find the game very tough.  There seems to be a handful of players who have mastered this and the rest of us are just mere mortals and struggle and the more we setup events at harder levels to keep these few down the rest of us see our scores skyrocket.  Very frustrating and not to be a smart aleck but I wish I had your problem of the game being to easy.

[frank70]

i have to second highfade. Me being a RTS-M player i find the long game on Tour Pro almost perfectly balanced in difficulty - at least if we could go back to off/off assists. My statistical numbers for GIR and FIR are pretty much in line with what we see at the PGA Tour.

 

And still the scores begin to get too low on the most difficult level. Going from off/off to off/min has of course something to do with that but the main reason for the low scores is the short game:

 

- scrambling: it's way too easy to hold the ball out of the rough around the greens. Pitch, chip, flop: the ball takes too much spin and the ratio of ball flight and roll therefore is really unrealistic. This is true if you are using the 64 degree wedge. I remember Mike stating that this club is somewhat "broken". This was months ago. Maybe it would be worth to look into it. On top of that we should have way more spin penalty out of the rough.

 

- putting: Grids and BLI are simply too precise. There is no guesswork when putting. You can see every subtle break. Of course there are more putts falling then in real life. Perfect would be, if the devs could come up with an alternative way of reading putts (colour based or contour based in a seperate putting view ... aiming and shot would have to be done after exiting the putting view).

 

JNPG doesn't feel unrealistic from tee to green to me - as a RTS-M player. But the easyness of scrambling and putting takes the strategic element of golf out of the game. You can attack every pin out there ...  because you can get up and down from almost every place of the golf course with an equal chance. No need to aim away from tugged pins.

 

The thing is: I think these issues aren't that hard to correct. Ball physics out of the rough could be tested with a higher spin penalty until we have a sweet spot. And the putting: Quite a few guys are playing rounds without the grid or the BLI right now. Interestingly the putting stats are way closer to reality as when using the aids. 

[Crow357]

@frank70:  Yeah, I love NAP putting, I wish it was a mode of play.  It takes me longer to read a putt now than with the BLI, but I get way more satisfaction out of nailing my read.

 

Maybe you could give some pointers on splash and flop shots using RTSM?  I'm just happy to get out of the bunker or within 10 feet with a flop using RTSM.

[mebby]

I think Crow is right.  For me personally, this is the first golf game that's approached a satisfactory realism level without being gimmicky.  There is still room for improvement and you hit on several of them in your post (like the flop shot - it's too easy to pull off in this game in my opinion) but in general, I'm fairly pleased with the core gameplay of JNPG.

 

Just try MS or RTSM or even RTSC and find a difficulty level that works for you.  I think that's where this game shines.  3C (not knocking it so please do not misread this) is way too two dimensional for me.  There's only two things that can go wrong (power and snap) so the shot variety is going to be limited.  RTSM is by FAR the most engaging swing mechanic around.  It's phenomenal and super difficult.  Give that a go.  RTSC is somewhere between RTSM and 3C and has given me a very enjoyable round of golf.

 

I'm not saying that the game is done and they shouldn't continue tweaking it but I find it much closer to satisfactory than you have and I guess I'm just wondering if you'd feel the same way if you used another swing type.  Just a thought.

[highfade]

I've switched to MS horizontal and do like it a lot but I'm still running into the same frustrating issues. 

 

Playing AM level on the course I'm working on which is on the easy side I can shoot -9.  Long game feels fine but the short game is too easy. Level up to Pro and I'm back to all over the place with the long game and have the short game rescue me to manage around par rounds. 

 

If I can custom level myself I'll take Am long game and TP short game.  IMO the putting with MS is the worst part as it has no tempo.

[fishwicket79]

i have to second highfade. Me being a RTS-M player i find the long game on Tour Pro almost perfectly balanced in difficulty - at least if we could go back to off/off assists. My statistical numbers for GIR and FIR are pretty much in line with what we see at the PGA Tour.

And still the scores begin to get too low on the most difficult level. Going from off/off to off/min has of course something to do with that but the main reason for the low scores is the short game:

- scrambling: it's way too easy to hold the ball out of the rough around the greens. Pitch, chip, flop: the ball takes too much spin and the ratio of ball flight and roll therefore is really unrealistic. This is true if you are using the 64 degree wedge. I remember Mike stating that this club is somewhat "broken". This was months ago. Maybe it would be worth to look into it. On top of that we should have way more spin penalty out of the rough.

- putting: Grids and BLI are simply too precise. There is no guesswork when putting. You can see every subtle break. Of course there are more putts falling then in real life. Perfect would be, if the devs could come up with an alternative way of reading putts (colour based or contour based in a seperate putting view ... aiming and shot would have to be done after exiting the putting view).

JNPG doesn't feel unrealistic from tee to green to me - as a RTS-M player. But the easyness of scrambling and putting takes the strategic element of golf out of the game. You can attack every pin out there ... because you can get up and down from almost every place of the golf course with an equal chance. No need to aim away from tugged pins.

The thing is: I think these issues aren't that hard to correct. Ball physics out of the rough could be tested with a higher spin penalty until we have a sweet spot. And the putting: Quite a few guys are playing rounds without the grid or the BLI right now. Interestingly the putting stats are way closer to reality as when using the aids.

again this is all down to swing method,the short game using the controller isn't a gimme,green side bunkers are probably the hardest shot for me,having to hit a quarter or 3rd of a swing is tough and when I go in a green side bunker I actually hate being there haha

[mebby]

I agree with Frank in that the short game still needs more fine tuning.  It's too easy to get up and down from where ever you are.  But I also don't think they are done with this area of the game yet as they seem to be slowly tweaking things here and there.  I noticed in the last update that something changed slightly with the splash shot.  It seems pretty good for me now on RTSC.  The flop, chip, and pitch need to have a little more difficulty in my opinion.  But I'm not talking about MAJOR changes - just looking for ways to make these shots a little more of a nail biting experience.

 

NAP putting.  I love it (obviously).  Reading greens without grids or BLI is very realistic in my opinion.  You can absolutely see the contours in the greens and when you drain a long putt it's super satisfying.  All we really need to make this a more viable option is a better free camera that allows you to skim along the surface without bouncing up to knee high level.  TGC has a fantastic camera like this (scout camera).  If we could mimic how they've done it then I'd be completely satisfied. 

 

Anyway - for me, using RTSC on TP level, I find course management from tee to green to be a critical part of the game.  It's engaging and fun.  My only minor issue right now is that the flop, pitch, and chip need more tweaking.  And we need a better free cam for reading greens without grids or BLI.  Do those things and I think the core of the game is solid.  Just my $0.02 of course.

[Sup?]

I disagree with those that say to simply change the method to controller or motion mouse because with 3 click everything is right in front of you.  Anybody taken a looksie at this weeks RTS scores at OGT?  I'm still trying to think of the last time I saw a -53 on the real life Pro tour... oh that's right... never.

[mebby]

I've switched to MS horizontal and do like it a lot but I'm still running into the same frustrating issues. 

 

Playing AM level on the course I'm working on which is on the easy side I can shoot -9.  Long game feels fine but the short game is too easy. Level up to Pro and I'm back to all over the place with the long game and have the short game rescue me to manage around par rounds. 

 

If I can custom level myself I'll take Am long game and TP short game.  IMO the putting with MS is the worst part as it has no tempo.

Yes - I completely know what you mean as I've been there.  But if you stick with it long enough and get proficient at Pro or even Tour Pro on MS then I think you'll find most of what you're looking for.  The short game will still be too easy though - I think most agree on that.  It needs more tweaking but from tee to green is pretty awesome on TP with MS or RTSM if you stick in there long enough to get proficient at it.

 

RTSC may give you a slightly different experience so don't rule that one out. 

[DivotMaker]

i have to second highfade. Me being a RTS-M player i find the long game on Tour Pro almost perfectly balanced in difficulty - at least if we could go back to off/off assists. My statistical numbers for GIR and FIR are pretty much in line with what we see at the PGA Tour.

 

And still the scores begin to get too low on the most difficult level. Going from off/off to off/min has of course something to do with that but the main reason for the low scores is the short game:

 

- scrambling: it's way too easy to hold the ball out of the rough around the greens. Pitch, chip, flop: the ball takes too much spin and the ratio of ball flight and roll therefore is really unrealistic. This is true if you are using the 64 degree wedge. I remember Mike stating that this club is somewhat "broken". This was months ago. Maybe it would be worth to look into it. On top of that we should have way more spin penalty out of the rough.

 

- putting: Grids and BLI are simply too precise. There is no guesswork when putting. You can see every subtle break. Of course there are more putts falling then in real life. Perfect would be, if the devs could come up with an alternative way of reading putts (colour based or contour based in a seperate putting view ... aiming and shot would have to be done after exiting the putting view).

 

JNPG doesn't feel unrealistic from tee to green to me - as a RTS-M player. But the easyness of scrambling and putting takes the strategic element of golf out of the game. You can attack every pin out there ...  because you can get up and down from almost every place of the golf course with an equal chance. No need to aim away from tugged pins.

 

The thing is: I think these issues aren't that hard to correct. Ball physics out of the rough could be tested with a higher spin penalty until we have a sweet spot. And the putting: Quite a few guys are playing rounds without the grid or the BLI right now. Interestingly the putting stats are way closer to reality as when using the aids. 

 

Agree to an extent.

 

Scrambling.....I am finding the 64 degree LW has a bit more roll out of the sand than I think it should. It should roll out, but I have seen 5-10 yards in some cases. I even think the roll out is a bit much off the short grass.

 

From the rough, I think the spin penalty works pretty well but I also see that it seems to vary from course to course and results can vary greatly depending on pin positions (see Merion PGA this week). If you add to the penalty, I think you will end up with way more chips and putts than you have now and with that more frustration. There is a fine line between challenge and frustration and we are flirting with it.

 

Agree completely on putting, especially without grids and BLI. I wish these were part of the API and not user settings so they could be disabled completely during tournaments.

 

One thing I think we need to tread carefully with is making sure any improvements made to the game are incremental and impact the game in a positive way universally. That means that the improvements still work when you have course setups like Merion at PGA this week and Crystal Pines in NAP on through to the easier setups. I find that courses play very differently across the differing conditions and I would hate to see us make the game more frustrating and less approachable on TP just to make the game score more in line with the PGA TOUR. To me, you can create very challenging conditions for most if not all courses without making the swing mechanic or ball physics more frustrating to execute. The scoring takes care of itself. At least that is how I feel today...ask me tomorrow and I may feel differently...

[highfade]

Bottom line is that you shouldn't need to change from your preferred method of play because it's broken. It should be fixed. Then you can decide which one you prefer. 

[frank70]

Agree to an extent.

 

Scrambling.....I am finding the 64 degree LW has a bit more roll out of the sand than I think it should. It should roll out, but I have seen 5-10 yards in some cases. I even think the roll out is a bit much off the short grass.

 

From the rough, I think the spin penalty works pretty well but I also see that it seems to vary from course to course and results can vary greatly depending on pin positions (see Merion PGA this week). If you add to the penalty, I think you will end up with way more chips and putts than you have now and with that more frustration. There is a fine line between challenge and frustration and we are flirting with it.

 

Agree completely on putting, especially without grids and BLI. I wish these were part of the API and not user settings so they could be disabled completely during tournaments.

 

One thing I think we need to tread carefully with is making sure any improvements made to the game are incremental and impact the game in a positive way universally. That means that the improvements still work when you have course setups like Merion at PGA this week and Crystal Pines in NAP on through to the easier setups. I find that courses play very differently across the differing conditions and I would hate to see us make the game more frustrating and less approachable on TP just to make the game score more in line with the PGA TOUR. To me, you can create very challenging conditions for most if not all courses without making the swing mechanic or ball physics more frustrating to execute. The scoring takes care of itself. At least that is how I feel today...ask me tomorrow and I may feel differently...

Of course the experience varies because we use different swing methods. Some elements of the game, or certain shots tend to be a tad easier with the one or the other swing method. Probably that will never go away entirely.

 

We disagree about the scrambling. Imho the physics aren't right. I started a thread a few months ago where i posted videos of the different shots. I mean in the game you can stop a flop shot out of the rough almost on a dime. You can pitch it out of the rough with real "check" on the ball. And the chips out of the rough often look like these "bounce-bounce-check"-chips we normally would expect playing it from the fairway. These physics are the same for all swing mechanics. And this amount of spin applied for these shots make it way wasier to scramble than in real life. For me that is a fact and it takes away from the immersion of playing golf.

 

I don't necessarily want the scores to get up. Or making it "no fun" to play. But not shortsiding yourself, or avoiding missing it on the wrong side are important tactical elements of the game of golf. In JNPG that doesn't really matter that much. So, with the right physics - less spin, more roll - around the greens the scores probably would go up a bit. Looking at the leaderboards the last weeks, that wouldn't be a bad thing. And it wouldn't be artificial or "tricking" the game up. It would be for realism.

 

@Crow

 

Bunker play: It's all about the tempo. Quite often you have an uphill lie around the greens. That helps and still i loft up almost every shot. Makes for a higher ball trajectory. This way it is easier to calculate the length of the shot (because the roll of the ball after it hits the ground is much shorter).

 

Tempo: You will face quite varying distances around the greens. Sometimes you have 30 feet, sometimes 70. That means that you almost always have to play a partial shot. Try to practice full splash shots out of the greenside bunker first. Get a feel for the tempo. If you have that down, you reduce the length by 10 feet. Practice again. You will see, that with the same tempo your balls will go left - because of the shorter backswing. Two possibilities: Take the club back a little bit slower and maintain the tempo of the downswing; or swing with your normal tempo aim more to the right.

Repeat this drill for bunker shots of 80, 70, 60, 50, 40 to 30 feet. Over the time you get a feel how far your backswing has to be and where to aim at. Beware though: If the ratio gets too low (under 0.20), the ball comes out really low and not that soft. Then you will have a lot of roll on the ball.

 

Flop shots are played in a very similar way to bunker shots. Because of the even higher trajectory it is even easier to calculate the shot length. But you have to be precise with the ratio. If your downswing is too fast, the ball moves of course left but on top of that considerably longer. If you are too slow, the ball can come up way short. If you hit it in a range between 0.24 and 0.26 ratio the flop shot can be a (too) deadly weapon to get up and down.

[Acrilix]

There is definitely some imbalance in the different shot types.

I play Pro RTS-C and I can't hit a straight shot on drives, approach shots or quite often on putts either, but chipping I don't think I've ever hit anything BUT a straight shot. This makes no sense to me. If I can control the swing of a chip then why do I struggle with putts when in real life it's pretty much the same action. In JNPG I'd rather have a 30 foot chip than a 10 foot putt on RTS-C Pro because I feel I'll make the chip more often. 

[mebby]

Bottom line is that you shouldn't need to change from your preferred method of play because it's broken. It should be fixed. Then you can decide which one you prefer. 

I agree and disagree at the same time.

 

3C is going to be inherently limited in how realistic it can get.  It's a two dimensional swing and golf is certainly not a two dimensional game.  With the other swing methods more variables are introduced which will open up the capabilities of what the gameplay engine can deliver.

 

Note that this is different from saying which swing type is more fun or more enjoyable.  That's up to the user.  When we start talking about realism though, 3C is simply a very limited experience.

[Greensboronclion]

Well guys and gals you want stats well you are going to get them and some might not like them but what the heck lets get it out there.  Below are some stats from this weeks three tour playoffs and please discuss after reading.

FedEx PGA Playoffs #1

There are a total of 29 Players under par with the leader at -22

There are a total of 57 players at Even to +74

This is a pretty good event played at the Pro level and very competitive and you have to remember a lot of the higher scores are from players how were playing Amateur or Hacker and tried Pro and it was good experience for them.  Overall this leaderboard would not shame a PGA Tour leaderboard and I would give this event an A for how it is playing out.

 

EU FedEx Playoffs

There are a total of 14 Players under par and -17 has the lead and -14 is 2nd

There are a total of 34 Players over par and the highest is +56

This is a great event this week and very tough but fair and a great leaderboard and again a lot of guys playing Pro level for the first time.  This if were a real PGA leaderboard would really be a great event.  I would give this event this week and A+.

 

RTS FedEx Playoffs

There are a total of 29 players under par and the leader is -53 2nd -47 3rd -41 a bunch of players in the -30's and a bunch in the -20 and 10's

There are a total of 13 players over par with the worst +58

Well never seen a leaderboard on the PGA tour like this and this is just and old fashioned Links 2003 shootout and not realistic at all. 

 

Just my two cents and I am sure I will be flogged for this but it is what it is.

[frank70]

It's the course. Bandon Trails has very wide fairways, is pretty short and the pins weren't that hard to get too. Quite a few pretty straight putts as well.

Merion was way more difficult to play.