1822 replies to this topic

[Crusher]

No 3Click Meter, no purchase.  Most likely that comment represents over 75% of how  we veteran player feel feel about any other modern PC golf game.

[Charles]

I really don't like the tempo based swing in TGC although it would be more acceptable if you could create your own tempo on the range and use that on the course. I feel that they have a tempo system because the swing mechanism isn't up to the job.
I much prefer Perfect Golf swing mechanic which doesn't need a the addition of tempo because it's difficulty and shot dispersion is spot on.

Playing with the RTS mouse in JNPG i am of the opnion that it pretty much copies the golfswing in real life. The 1:4 tempo is just about perfect. Ofcourse there are swings in real life that deviate from this tempo and still get the job done. It would be nice to tweak your own swing. But for the most part i'm okay with the JNPG swing.

 

The TGC mouse swing demands more 'action'. I am getting better at it and am finding out that it is not the length of the backswing (ie pulling the mouse back) that makes a sound swing. This is something JNPG does better as the swing movement of the Ani is 1:1 with the movement of the mouse. The great thing is that JNPG leaves it up to the player to start taking the club (and mouse) back once activated (clicking the right mouse button) and leave it up to you how far back you want to go back in your swing. In TGC it does not work that way.

 

In TGC you activate the backswing by clicking on the left mouse button and keep pushing on it all the while taking the mouse back. That feels awkward to me. Now, once you have pushed the left mouse button the Ani comes alive and starts its backswing right up to the top (even if you have only slightly moved your mouse back!). If you do not want to hit the ball you just release the left mouse button and the Ani goes back to the adress position. The Ani will not make a down swing if you don't move your mouse forcefully forward.

 

I call the TGC mouse swing a HWS, not a real time swing, meaning HalfWaySwing. It is not a 100% real time swing like in JNPG. Ofcourse, when you want to hit the ball you just go back and forward with your mouse and follow through. That part is real time. Still, it just feels (and looks) awkward seeing your Ani make a backswing without you being in control. TGC just takes another approach to the mouse swing and you either like it or don't. That aside, it works ok, ofcourse after getting used to it, and then you slowly start making better swings.

 

But i do not have the same 1:1 feel with the TGC swing as I do with the JNPG swing. In JNPG i am in full control of the whole swing as soon as i hit the right mouse button (without having to hold the button down!). Especially with putting, chipping and pitching this 'real-feel' is somewhat absent in TGC as compared to JNPG.

[slouis]

Thanks Charles for your very informative analysis of TGC 2019 vs. JNPG.  As someone who plays the real game and doesn't have the space or the desire to spend a lot of money on a simulator, the RTSM swing is the absolute best simulation of a real golf swing that I have used.  TGC 2019 would need to have an even better real time mouse swing for me to consider purchasing it and currently it costs about $30 CAD more than JNPG.

The TGC 2019 swing sounds similar to Tru Swing in TW 08 where tempo was not a requirement and you merely pushed the mouse forward as fast you could to gain distance. 

I will patiently wait for JNPG2 while continuing my quest to achieve consistency using RTSM at the Pro level.  The fact that breaking par is an achievement after almost two years at the second most difficult level is confirmation of how realistic RTSM is.  The last thing I want is a computer golf swing where scoring ridiculosis low scores every round is the norm.  As long as JNPG2 has the RTSM swing I will definitely purchase it.

[JCat04]

Playing with the RTS mouse in JNPG i am of the opnion that it pretty much copies the golfswing in real life. The 1:4 temp is just about perfect. Ofcourse there are swings in real life that deviate from this tempo and still get the job done. It would be nice to tweak your own swing. But for the most part i'm okay with the JNPG swing.

 

The TGC mouse swing demands more 'action'. I am getting better at it and am finding out that it is not the length of the backswing (ie pulling the mouse back) that makes a sound swing. This is something JNPG does better as the swing movement of the Ani is 1:1 with the movement of the mouse. The great thing is that JNPG leaves it up to the player to start taking the club (and mouse) back once activated (clicking the right mouse button) and leave it up to you how far back you want to back in your swing. In TGC it does not work that way.

 

In TGC you activate the backswing by clicking on the left mouse button and keep pushing on it all the while taking the mouse back. That feels awkward to me. Now, once you have pushed the left mouse button the Ani comes alive and starts its backswing right up to the top (even if you have only slightly moved your mouse back!). If you do not want to hit the ball you just release the left mouse button and the Ani goes back to the adress position. The Ani will not make a down swing if you don't move your mouse forcefully forward.

 

I call the TGC mouse swing a HWS, not a real time swing, meaning HalfWaySwing. It is not a 100% real time swing like in JNPG. Ofcourse, when you want to hit the ball you just go back and forward with your mouse and follow through. That part is real time. Still, it just feels (and looks) awkward seeing your Ani make a backswing without you being in control. TGC just takes another approach to the mouse swing and you either like it or don't. That aside, it works ok, ofcourse after getting used to it, and then you slowly start making better swings.

 

But i do not have the same 1:1 feel with the TGC swing as I do with the JNPG swing. In JNPG i am in full control of the whole swing as soon as i hit the right mouse button (without having to hold the button down!). Especially with putting, chipping and pitching this 'real-feel' is somewhat absent in TGC as compared to JNPG.

 

 

Great description Charles, and you've broken down the mouse swings in both JNPG and TGC 2019 to a degree to which I would have no frame of reference to give.  I got bored with and quit the 3-click swing in 1998 and  went mouse swing from 1998 through 2007 in PGA Championship Golf 99, 2000 and Tiger Woods PGA Tour 2002 thru 2007.  I gave up computer desktop gaming in 2008, with the purchase of my first HDTV and home theater surround system, even though my gaming PC was and is still connected to this new system, which is now on its fourth HDTV (now a 65" 4K UHD) and second home theater receiver.

 

I went over to game controller input for my golf gaming.  Links 2004 on the XBox and Tiger Woods PGA Tour 2007 through 2013, and then  TGC, JNPG, TGC 2, and now TGC 2019 have all converted me to a thumbstick controller gamer.   I have set up a temporary table for mouse control on JNPG and all three TGC games out of curiosity.  There's no doubt about it, JNPG's real time mouse swing is the most intricate and involving analog control interface, outside of a launch simulator, ever made for a computer golf game.  I'm just too much of a convenience freak to give up playing the game from my recliner with a controller now, as I believe both JNPG and TGC 2019 have done an pretty dang good job of making the controller interfaces feel pretty challenging and intutitive for a gamer of average skills, such as myself.

 

The table and chair that I have to set up for mouse control does not meet my wife's approval for the room.  I have to take them down and put them out of the way every time I want to use them, so out of laziness, I just dropped any notion of playing either game with a mouse on a continuing basis.  I'll have to say that I don't find TGC's mouse control to be anywhere near as intuitive as JNPG's real time mouse swing, so I wouldn't want to play it with a mouse, even if I did have a pernanent setup.

 

I really enjoyed reading your perspective on it though and you make me want to drag out my table and desk chair to try out the mouse swing one more time, just to see if my mindset had changed any.  I really haven't given TGC 2019 a fair trial with it's mouse swing, but I do find that I enjoy its controller swing as much as any controller swing I've tried.  I like the added dimension of its tempo input, even though it's a bit of a stretch how they've factored its impact on the swing.  Still, it makes the gameplay feel deeper in a strangely compelling way, at least to me.  I can easily understand how it wouldn't wash for others though.

[Charles]

Well, i am progressing quietly and have reached level 5 now.   Playing from a 5 hcp. I'm finally getting a grip on this mouse swing.   Like i wrote: it aint JNPG! But i'm not going to drag that dead horse around anymore. It is what it is.

 

I'm putting in some hours now, and have just progressed to the Web.com tour and will try to keep moving up till i reach the PGA. Should be awhile though. Playing in a tournament environment is fun, with commentaries, the cheering a/o clapping public all over the place and all in all a nice ambiance.

 

The UI works great and the virtual golfshop is stacked with all kinds of neat extra equipment, clothes, caps, glasses, shoes and just about any- and everything you'd want. Building up my monies (through playing) i can 'buy' all kinds of goodies 'n stuff. So, progressing through the ranks and levels you get extra bonus & achievement points and monies. There is also a virtual color palette which can be used on all your accessoiries, which gives the player the possibility to customize everything to your own personal wishes, giving an endless amount of color combinations. Very nice option. Courses do not have to be downloaded as there is a UI for this too. So, as far as I can see, the game is fully equiped on that front also.

 

Also, the personal UI to make the Ani in your own image is a great (and fun!) tool. Skincolor, hair, nose, body, cheeks, eyes, ears etc etc, the whole shabang! . The game is very complete otherwise. The issues (swing, no hard backspin, grid, a bit to clean cut courses etc) aside, this game is a nice side kick to JNPG. The (mouse) swing is so different that it does not impare my JNPG swing. If that would be the case I would not play it as much. Anyway, yet have to play a game in multiplayer, but that's just a question of time.

 

I have had no glitches or connection problems so far. The game plays (through Steam) as smooth as silk. Works the same as JNPG. Graphics can be tweaked to play from normal to super sharp/clear depending on what your system can handle. Standard the views are good and the game generally plays around 60 FPS and, depending on your video card, it can handle more sharpness etc. All in all, my first impressions are positive and both games kind of suppliment each other. Well... as long as JNPG does not upgrade to a newer version that is!

[JCat04]

Well, i am progressing quietly and have reached level 5 now.   Playing from a 5 hcp. I'm finally getting a grip on this mouse swing.   Like i wrote: it aint JNPG! But i'm not going to drag that dead horse around anymore. It is what it is.

 

I'm putting in some hours now, and have just progressed to the Web.com tour and will try to keep moving up till i reach the PGA. Should be awhile though. Playing in a tournament environment is fun, with commentaries, the cheering a/o clapping public all over the place and all in all a nice ambiance.

 

The UI works great and the virtual golfshop is stacked with all kinds of neat extra equipment, clothes, caps, glasses, shoes and just about any- and everything you'd want. Building up my monies (through playing) i can 'buy' all kinds of goodies 'n stuff. So, progressing through the ranks and levels you get extra bonus & achievement points and monies. There is also a virtual color palette which can be used on all your accessoiries, which gives the player the possibility to customize everything to your own personal wishes, giving an endless amount of color combinations. Very nice option. Courses do not have to be downloaded as there is a UI for this too. So, as far as I can see, the game is fully equiped on that front also.

 

Also, the personal UI to make the Ani in your own image is a great (and fun!) tool. Skincolor, hair, nose, body, cheeks, eyes, ears etc etc, the whole shabang! . The game is very complete otherwise. The issues (swing, no hard backspin, grid, a bit to clean cut courses etc) aside, this game is a nice side kick to JNPG. The (mouse) swing is so different that it does not impare my JNPG swing. If that would be the case I would not play it as much. Anyway, yet have to play a game in multiplayer, but that's just a question of time.

 

I have had no glitches or connection problems so far. The game plays (through Steam) as smooth as silk. Works the same as JNPG. Graphics can be tweaked to play from normal to super sharp/clear depending on what your system can handle. Standard the views are good and the game generally plays around 60 FPS and, depending on your video card, it can handle more sharpness etc. All in all, my first impressions are positive and both games kind of suppliment each other. Well... as long as JNPG does not upgrade to a newer version that is!

 

Charles, it takes a lot of patience to dive into the mouse swing for The Golf Club 2019 (or any prior version from what I've seen) enough to get somewhat of a handle on it.  I commend you for your steadfastness in doing so!  I completely transitioned over to the thumbstick method back in 2007/08 and in turn connected my gaming PC to a home theater system with an HDTV.  I no longer have a desktop environment suitable for mouse gaming.  I created a tempory one to try the mouse swing out with TGC 2019, and my mouse skills have waned so badly that I didn't have a prayer with it. 

 

I find the mouse swing UI and operation confusing in this game.  Even after I got it sort of figured out, I find it hard to figure out where the starting and ending points for the mouse swing are on the screen.  It sort of feels random to me.  Yeah, I did eventually hit some good shots, but I wasn't sure exactly what I did to achieve that.  I took my temporary table down, and moved the desk chair back downstairs where it belongs after an hour and a half of experimentation, but if I were to play TGC 2019 in a mouse control Society, I would be among the bottom feeders

 

I play the game on the XBox One X most of the time, and I haven't even tried the online matchmaking on the PC version so I can't give you a read on how the traffic is on the PC.  I know you'd likely get cheesers playing with Beginner or Pro clubs that never miss a fairway or green.  I run into that a lot on the XBox One X, but I occasionally get a really good match and have actually added about 10 new friends who were either legitmately playing with Beginner or Pro clubs, or who share my love for Master clubs with the controller.

 

Hit me up if you'd like to try some multiplayer and see what it's like.  I can set up a private match to whatever play mode you prefer.  BTW, if you haven't done so already, check out the 2019 version of Conservatory Club.  It is a stunningly good course that's a collaboration of two of the best designers in the game. 

[Charles]

@JCat: well, i'm a 'mouse man' because i just play the game(s) behind my desktop in my den. Suits me fine. I like playing with the mouse. Before (JN6/GBC and others) i played 3C. I have not as yet played TGC'19 through multiplayer, so that is still a to-do.

 

Like i wrote, the mouse movement in TGC'19 is much more 'brutal' than the more 'refined' one in JNPG. Like i wrote before, in JNPG you just click on the right mouse button to active the Ani. Nothing happens after that if you dont move the mouse. By right clicking again you deactivate the Ani. This system leaves every mouse movement up to the player (i.e. taking the mouse back). You can make a practise backswing in JNPG to see how far back you want to go. Right clicking deactivates the mouse and the Ani is back in adress position. In JNPG taking the mouse back is a very precise and sensitive thing. The 1:4 tempo change/conversion is very (extremely) exact and demands real mouse/hand concentration and coordination.

 

In TGC'19 the mouse movement is much more brutal, less sensitive and much 'bigger' in the sense that the mouse must make a longer back and forward movement. And you must keep the left mouse button pressed all the time to activate the Ani. The two swings are quite different in that. For me, the TGC'19 mouse swing is more of a 'swoosh-bang!'   movement compared to the 'threading the needle' type of movement in JNPG . Maybe that is one of the reasons why TGC could appeal to a broader (non-golfing) public? Who knows.

 

Thanks for the course tips! I checked it out and it is indeed a stunning course. I also made a note of DoGgs 'Links at Sketty Ring' which is a good design too. And Matt Rose's Macedon Ranges' is one i still have to play.

 

Anyway, i'll send you a PM to get link up info etc.

[JCat04]

New development of major significance in the TGC 2019 world:  Chad Rockey has created and released a Lidar data import tool for the PC version of TGC 2019.  It works amazingly well based on the two courses I've played that were built using it: Purgatory GC and The Jack Nicklaus Course @ Reunion.  It was surprised at how natural both of these courses look; the Lidar generated foundation makes a big difference, IMO.

 

Check these two courses out if you haven't yet.  Just make sure you play the Lidar version (sometimes distinguished with an (L) in the course title.

 

Here's a link to Chad's web page for the tool if you want to learn more about it.

 

https://chadrockey.g...Designer-Tools/

[Buck]

Man I'm so ready for TGC to have a new "look & feel" with a ground up new version..

Just looking at those 2 screenshots in JC's link above made me close the window and say "meh" under my breath..

[DPRoberts]

It's a huge plus that they have LIDAR. The lack of LIDAR is the main reason I never ventured over there. Each designer has its plus and minuses. The biggest plus they have is speed. MRose and DoGgs can do a course in 1-2 days with TGC. However, the biggest deficit is lack of customization with objects and mesh texture control. There tends to be a lack of "individuality" with the designs, nothing to say, oh that's a RobC or Slewin design...

 

If they can develop a texture customization protocol, they might get some new life out of the program. Interestingly, I found a guy making Scioto over at GSF. https://golfsimulato...lub-with-lasers

 

I'll let you decide which program delivers the realism...(I do like the lighting in their bunkers, but that's a lower directional light than I'm using...)

Top image hole #4 - TGC, Bottom image hole #4 - JNPG 

[DoGgs]

The sense of scale in TGC is so noticeable when you compare the two, PG has it pretty much perfect where TGC is miles off.  Also the trees in PG look much better than the hideous clay looking effergies in TGC, no comparison really...hands down PG

[DPRoberts]

It's funny. I've always felt their views look "compressed". It's like JNPG is viewing through a 35mm lens and TGC is through a 150mm lens.

It's a trick for portrait photography to make everyone look slimmer. It just always came across as you say "the sense of scale" seems off...

[mebby]

Yea - the scale thing has always bugged me about TGC.  In general I feel like TGC courses look more video game like and JNPG courses look more authentic and realistic.  Different courses in JNPG actually have a different "feel" whereas there's always a distinct sameness feeling with every TGC course no matter how different it is from all the other courses.  

 

JNPG isn't perfect though.  There are times when their courses have the very vague feeling of playing on a picture instead of playing inside an actual landscape.  But in general I do prefer the look/feel of JNPG courses.  I think 3D turf would go a LONG way towards solving this feeling.

[JoeF]

In general I feel like TGC courses look more video game like and JNPG courses look more authentic and realistic.

That's it in a nut shell. 

I've stood on a tee, looked down a fairway and thought "holy sh*t hat looks like JNPG".  On more than one occasion.  Can't say that for TGC.

[JCat04]

Man I'm so ready for TGC to have a new "look & feel" with a ground up new version..

Just looking at those 2 screenshots in JC's link above made me close the window and say "meh" under my breath..

 

Well, if I'd only seen those two screenshots taken from the LiDAR import tool, it would be a "meh" moment for me.  Those are low res captures that don't fully represent the actual in-game graphics I'm seeing on my 4K display, via my XBox One x.  I also realize that you're still going to get that generic "look & feel" impression when you look at TGC graphics, as I get it to some degree when I look at them.  The LiDAR topography does something - in my opinion - to mitigate that 'sameness' that many of TGC's critics justifiably cite as a weakness in the game. 

 

I recognize that TGC 2019 is nowhere near the level of golf game that I thought we'd have at this point in 2019, but somehow I'm managing to enjoy it enough to play it every day.  It's probably because it's the closest thing I've got to scratching my itch, which is what JNPG was doing until TGC 2 released in 2017.  If you put TGC's mo-capped golfers and heavy rough textures in JNPG right now, it would still be the game I'd be playing.  

[Buck]

Well, if I'd only seen those two screenshots taken from the LiDAR import tool, it would be a "meh" moment for me.  Those are low res captures that don't fully represent the actual in-game graphics I'm seeing on my 4K display, via my XBox One x.  I also realize that you're still going to get that generic "look & feel" impression when you look at TGC graphics, as I get it to some degree when I look at them.  The LiDAR topography does something - in my opinion - to mitigate that 'sameness' that many of TGC's critics justifiably cite as a weakness in the game. 

 

Honestly, I think the "sameness" is simply inherent to the way TGC was designed and built (course designing and how it's all server side implemented, etc) and their engine, etc.

I don't think they can do much about it short of a new engine at some point.

 

I think the LIDAR is great, but I'm not sure how that would really do much to mitigate the sameness of the look and feel of the textures and way the game visually renders overall.

It feels like a different issue altogether (the LIDAR) that's more about accurate representation of the terrain, which is of course great to see on TGC, no question.

[M Rose]

I've done four or five courses now, and I feel like I'm already starting to recycle...  such is the limitation of default plants and textures only.

 

Of the 15 textures available for each surface, there's only about three or four that are any good, and several that I'll probably never use. So without customization I feel like I'm already running out of good combinations.

[Buck]

I've done four or five courses now, and I feel like I'm already starting to recycle...  such is the limitation of default plants and textures only.

 

Of the 15 textures available for each surface, there's only about three or four that are any good, and several that I'll probably never use. So without customization I feel like I'm already running out of good combinations.

 

But M...

 

This allows them to offer a rich detailed library of 785,000 user "made" courses

 

 

Ok - a little snark...I don't think it's quite that many, but my point remains that "it sounded good" to do this whole server side, easy peezy to make courses by anyone, routine, but it really hamstrings the potential for talented designers vs the PG approach.  Pro's and Con's for sure..

 

I think when the game is new it's fun and exciting to have new courses coming out quickly.

 

Long term, however, I'd much rather have higher quality, more unique and hand crafted efforts such as the wonderful library we have here for PG - nearly all thanks to 3rd party course designers and not PP I would hasten to add!

[Jwheels9876]

The good thing about TGC is I can bang out my local courses in 2 days time for personal use on the simulator. I can publish it under whatever name I want and nobody would bother playing it anyway. Unity and CF is a real grind to get through and make a quality course. It's too much to handle at times. Without the helping hands of others throughout the community, half the people would probably quit before ever finishing a course.

[Buck]

The good thing about TGC is I can bang out my local courses in 2 days time for personal use on the simulator. I can publish it under whatever name I want and nobody would bother playing it anyway. Unity and CF is a real grind to get through and make a quality course. It's too much to handle at times. Without the helping hands of others throughout the community, half the people would probably quit before ever finishing a course.

 

Yes, the accessibility is nice.

It's a big tradeoff though.

 

The "high end" of what's possible and we ultimately have on PG is so much better than what's even "possible" on the TGC design side.

In an ideal world there'd be two different ways to design for the same actual game.