1822 replies to this topic

[Jwheels9876]

Buck, on 21 Mar 2019 - 10:44 PM, said:

Yes, the accessibility is nice.
It's a big tradeoff though.
 
The "high end" of what's possible and we ultimately have on PG is so much better than what's even "possible" on the TGC design side.
In an ideal world there'd be two different ways to design for the same actual game.

All they need is custom texture importing and the courses will come to life. And letting people use all the different trees with all the themes would be nice also.

I played 3 of the new lidar courses this morning on the sim and they were pretty good but the overlay texture technique here is way more realistic looking

[Buck]

Jwheels9876, on 21 Mar 2019 - 11:29 PM, said:

All they need is custom texture importing and the courses will come to life.

Can they realistically do that with their server based/hosted model though?

PG course files can be half a GB

[DoGgs]

They will never do custom textures or custom objects over at TGC, console is their main market, why would they do anything for PC that would just piss off console users.  You can dream and talk about it all day long...aint happening!  I had 5 mins of novelty with TGC 2019,  now i have zero interest in playing it or creating.  Shame really because striping it off the tee feels great, its when you get in and around the green the game falls apart badly. 

 

The only good thing i can see with the LIDAR are the green contours, designers were scared to death of creating greens that had breaks going more than one way, undulations here and there.  All this paranoid thinking came from that dude Taste, he slaughtered every course that had anything approaching difficult greens back in the first game version, and the silly sheep actually listened to him, they were then left with boring, tame greens. I remember testing this mentality with one of my final courses at TGC, the first par 3 green was undulated and bumpy yet completely fair, but the complaints i had...wow!  

[Buck]

I feel like we are getting close to drawing Anthony back in to responding and "re-defending" TGC and their original design choices all over again..

 

lol

 

C'mon Antonio...

We know you're out there watching from time to time..  

 

 

[AnthonyKyne]

I don't think there has to be any defending of stuff. It's all personal preference really.

The issues you guys have are noticed by such a small group of people that compared to the impact of not course sharing across platforms for example weren't worth addressing in my time. You have to make decisions for the many not the few. If we'd made the exact game you guys wanted and what you think are the most important - TGC would be in the same shape as PG.

But they're now with a big publisher, have a decent franchise and are the only game on the market. As I've always said, if you try and please everyone you get caught between two stools and please no one. Where as having a vision and sticking to it, you may upset a few but you'll hopefully create a community that likes what you do and hope it grows.

[Buck]

AnthonyKyne, on 10 Apr 2019 - 1:03 PM, said:

I don't think there has to be any defending of stuff. It's all personal preference really.
The issues you guys have are noticed by such a small group of people that compared to the impact of not course sharing across platforms for example weren't worth addressing in my time. You have to make decisions for the many not the few. If we'd made the exact game you guys wanted and what you think are the most important - TGC would be in the same shape as PG.
But they're now with a big publisher, have a decent franchise and are the only game on the market. As I've always said, if you try and please everyone you get caught between two stools and please no one. Where as having a vision and sticking to it, you may upset a few but you'll hopefully create a community that likes what you do and hope it grows.

Well hello there...   

A little later than anticipated, but right on message..
 
Thanks for stopping by AK

[JCat04]

I enjoyed reading that and it makes economic sense Anthony.  I only wish there was something that could be done to make bunker lips and faces a bit more customizable an realistic looking, but I can also see how that would tax the course DNA model currently in use that allows course sharing across platforms.

 

If you can share your opinion on this question, I'd like to read it:  do you think 2K has a tighter leash on what HB Studios can say about future installments of The Golf Club than Maximum Games had with TGC 2?

[luetze]

What JCat says I'd love to see that the bunkers are looking more realistic and a more versatile choice of textures at least but I do understand the restrictions of the platform concept as well.  

 

I have to say I really enjoy the atmosphere and the tournament option in the game. With all the new LIDAR based courses coming in lately it makes even more fun. Hope this (user created tool) will still working with the next version as it brings a ton of interesting courses and a touch more realism to the game.

 

Overall I spend much more time over there at the moment what is somewhat sad to confess for a Linkster/Perfect Golfer of the first hour but that's the way it is and I'm afraid we won't hear much about a possible JNPG2 for a long time if ever. So I really hope the development of TGC will go on and it will be around with updated versions in the coming years.

[AnthonyKyne]

We did spend quite a bit of time on bunker lips for TGC2, but if we'd spent anymore on it, it would have started to impact other big features with the Course Designer. It was definitely something that the team was aware of though, and everything is solvable. It's just a question of how high on the priority list to goes.

When I was EP on it, I'd look at the huge list of things we'd want to do and rate them on what was possible in the time we had and what would improve the needle in reviews and experiences for majority of our player base. So bunker lips are a huge chunk of work, costing 4 or 5 other big features and wouldn't really make much difference in getting new players in. Live Mulit-player, flowing water, improved swing, more game types all would be higher on the list for example. So it always fell down the list. But technology is always improving so it might become, or might already have become, simpler so I wouldn't say HB wouldn't ever address it. 

 

With regards 2K, I don't really know anything about the deal, so I can't say. And as much as I'm still in touch with Alan and the guys it's confidential so they wouldn't be able to tell me anyway. I'd hope they kept creative control and I hope that the chance of a bigger audience means more cash to improve visuals and presentations. It's the No1 game on the market now, and I hope it sticks to it's core values and steers away from the pitfalls that EA fell into

[luetze]

Thanks for the insight.

 

AnthonyKyne, on 11 Apr 2019 - 09:38 AM, said:

...and I hope it sticks to it's core values and steers away from the pitfalls that EA fell into

 

I second that!

[JCat04]

AnthonyKyne, on 11 Apr 2019 - 09:38 AM, said:

1.)  So bunker lips are a huge chunk of work, costing 4 or 5 other big features and wouldn't really make much difference in getting new players in. Live Mulit-player, flowing water, improved swing, more game types all would be higher on the list for example. 

 

2.)  With regards 2K, I don't really know anything about the deal, so I can't say. And as much as I'm still in touch with Alan and the guys it's confidential so they wouldn't be able to tell me anyway. I'd hope they kept creative control and I hope that the chance of a bigger audience means more cash to improve visuals and presentations. It's the No1 game on the market now, and I hope it sticks to it's core values and steers away from the pitfalls that EA fell into

 

1.)   If it came down to more realistic bunker lips compared to any of the features you listed: Live Mulit-player, flowing water, improved swing, more game types, I'd say the right choice was made.  I just think that ultimately, more believable and varied bunker lips are going to be needed to make this game look fully, current gen.

 

2.)  Thanks for your thoughts on the relationship with 2K.  I think that even if 2K gave HB Studios creative control over the game, they would still be controlling the flow of information and promotion of the game.  I get the sense that there is some sort of gag order in effect with regard to that, which is understandable.

[DoGgs]

Realistic bunkers being way down the list kinda sums up TGC for me, they placed no importance on them whatsoever. I remember when they announced a links theme, that got me all excited, expecting to see pot bunkers, all we got was an ocean view with a texture that looked nothing like a links course, it was all so disappointing and screamed clueless.

[JCat04]

DoGgs, on 11 Apr 2019 - 1:49 PM, said:

Realistic bunkers being way down the list kinda sums up TGC for me, they placed no importance on them whatsoever. I remember when they announced a links theme, that got me all excited, expecting to see pot bunkers, all we got was an ocean view with a texture that looked nothing like a links course, it was all so disappointing and screamed clueless.

 

 

I brought up the bunker lip/face issue with Anthony here because I know that's one of the chief criticisms that fans of Perfect Golf level against TGC.  For starters, I can see how allowing users to customize and detail bunker lips to the extent that users are able to do so in Perfect Golf would prevent HB Studios from offering their cross platform course sharing.  You'd soon reach the point where you had to do individual course downloads for permanent storage on the user's hard drives, be it PS4, XBox One, or PC.  That would be a licensing issue for the consoles, I'm thinking.

 

As much as I'd like to see Perfect Golf quality bunkers in The Golf Club, I can still see why they'd put the features Anthony listed ahead in priority in terms of the broader market appeal. 

[AnthonyKyne]

Dogs - I just don't understand where you're coming from with that.

How could you release a second TGC with no other feature than better bunkers. It would have cost millions to get it working and keep the course sharing from TGC1. It's that short sightedness that leads to your game getting canned. How would you justify that to your CEO? How would reviews and the buying public (outside of a small few, that wouldn't be enough to recoup the cost) react to it?

If you want to build a franchise, you have to understand the steady steps version by version you need to make to get to the end goal.

[Buck]

DoGgs, on 11 Apr 2019 - 1:49 PM, said:

Realistic bunkers being way down the list kinda sums up TGC for me, they placed no importance on them whatsoever. 

 

Me too

 

3 game versions in and this one aspect of TGC still looks worse than games from 13 years ago.

 

Frustrating, as it's an important visual and gameplay element in real golf.

[IanK]

DoGgs, on 11 Apr 2019 - 1:49 PM, said:

Realistic bunkers being way down the list kinda sums up TGC for me, they placed no importance on them whatsoever. I remember when they announced a links theme, that got me all excited, expecting to see pot bunkers, all we got was an ocean view with a texture that looked nothing like a links course, it was all so disappointing and screamed clueless.

To be fair they aren’t bunker lips in the true sense, they’re just a horrible mess and I hate the sight of them.
They would have been better off having no bunker lip ‘effect’ at all.

[MERACE]

IanK, on 11 Apr 2019 - 8:48 PM, said:

To be fair they aren’t bunker lips in the true sense, they’re just a horrible mess and I hate the sight of them.
They would have been better off having no bunker lip ‘effect’ at all.

 

I agree to a certain extent.

 

However, if that were the case, I believe that we would be reading the same (maybe more) amount of criticism for having "missing bunker lips" as we do with "messy bunker lips". 

 

 

-MERACE

[IanK]

MERACE, on 11 Apr 2019 - 9:13 PM, said:

I agree to a certain extent.

However, if that were the case, I believe that we would be reading the same (maybe more) amount of criticism for having "missing bunker lips" as we do with "messy bunker lips".


-MERACE

I think if we knew what we were getting no lips would have been preferred. Perhaps they can have it as an option! ;-)
I just can’t understand how PG’s lips are so good and TGC’s are so ugly.

[JCat04]

IanK, on 11 Apr 2019 - 9:18 PM, said:

I think if we knew what we were getting no lips would have been preferred. Perhaps they can have it as an option! ;-)
I just can’t understand how PG’s lips are so good and TGC’s are so ugly.

 

It's because TGC course files aren't stored to the hard drive.  They are created from a definition by the course's DNA as to where, how deep, and what shape they are.  The server applies the draw instructions from the course's DNA and re-creates the bunker from the information it stores.  Perfect Golf's bunkers are part of the relatively massive course file for each individual course, so it can included much more detail about how to present a much more nuanced and detailed bunker.  That course file is usually between 150 and 350 MB and is stored on the player's hard drive.  There are no course files stored on a TGC player's computer or console, at least not for the shared courses.

[DoGgs]

AK, i never said release TGC 2 with no other improvement other than credible bunkers, obviously there has to be other improved features.  After the first game, bunker TLC should have been top of the list considering how hideous and immersion breaking they are, how could you guys at HB be happy to just let that slide. 

   Instead of bunker correction you focused on improving multiplayer ( remained broken )

   Implemented a tour mode ( forced you to play poor courses with wonky A.I. )

   Implemented tempo ( subject to frame rate consistency, so many head scratching results otherwise )

The tempo element should not have been used for the short game either, there is very little feel to any of the short game shots, its all tempo focused.  I play in real life and my short game is prob my best attribute, i played snooker at a high level for years and feel and touch is paramount in that sport, it transferred to golf's short game very well with me and became my best facet of play.  I don't even think about tempo playing chip shots or flops, it comes naturally with repetition, my focus is 100% feel.  With PG i can identify the short game with feel and touch to a decent degree, not so with TGC as its clunky, devoid of feel and too tempo focused.