102 replies to this topic

[Dazmaniac]

That type of 'dumbing down' might be OK for one off monthly tournaments, but the idea of playing a golf sim, is that you can play the game anywhere within the limitations it offers and not be forced to play at the same level as someone/everyone else.

 

So I play against someone who has configured his CHS to effectively leave him 15-20 yds shorter then me off the tee. Does this guarantee me a victory? Of course not. It's the beauty of the game of golf. Distance on it's own is no guarantee of winning.

 

Don't see why we need to make everyone clones of each other in Perfect Golf.

[Davefevs]

Perhaps we need something in club distances that allows you set yourself up as a pro to simulate a tour pro.

You then might be able to set your distance for driver. The default might be 280 yards. Then you decide to increase this to 290 yards ( there might be a min/max of +/- 10% (252/308). The more you increase the more a mishit penalises you. Opposite for decreases.

With this type of method you can start to build some character in the way you play, e.g. Shorter but straighter vs longer buy wilder.

You can still over swing past the 12o/c....or under swing too.

You could also then have level called club, where same principle applies but the default is 250 etc.

I'm sure there are many ways of achieving levels of play. Does something like the above have any merit?

[Mike Jones]

We haven't decided what sort of distances and trade-offs we might have in the final game but the way we have set our physics up will work with anything we or you decide is best. 

 

Dave I kind of like the idea but how do you explain someone like Luke Donald? Not long or particularly straight off the tee but with an awesome short game.

 

As our main goal is to mirror the real game, it's pretty obvious that everyone who plays the game for real hits the ball different distances and has different strengths and weaknesses. I'm completely open to any and all ideas of how we best recreate this in PerfectGolf without giving any particular type of player a distinct advantage.

[bortimus]

Dave, I like the idea of having the option to add distance to the club with a more severe mishit penalty.  Mike, what if each club had the option to add 10% (like Dave said) in 4 increments of 2.5% or whatever number of steps you guys decided? Each step up would magnify the mishit penalty. I don't think there should be an option to lower the penalty for a mishit even if the distance were lowered though.  It should still be a challenge to hit the ball straight.  For what it's worth, I always thought that champ click in Links was the best simulation of how a normal round could play out from tee to green.  Around the greens though, it was a little too easy. 

 

One thing that might be interesting is increasing the fat/thin effect for the short game compared to the full swing.  Chipping off of a tight lie (or any lie for that matter), attempting some kind of flop shot, and bunker play should have more severe mishit effects.  This would put a premium on course management and put some real pressure on the short game.  

 

I also like the idea of having levels of players, Professional, Club, maybe another tier below that.  The default distances or clubhead speeds could mirror the average type of player at that skill level.  

[axe360]

 

 

I'm completely open to any and all ideas of how we best recreate this in PerfectGolf without giving any particular type of player a distinct advantage.

 

This, is the Key...

[bortimus]

Don't kill me for this (not very well thought out), but IF you decide to go the way of creating players with strengths and weaknesses using an attribute based system, it could look something like this:

 

Give the user 4 increases and 3 decreases.  The user CANNOT offset an increase and decrease on the same attribute.  All 7 must be either an increase or decrease (each attribute is either a weakness or strength).  The user is then forced to balance as they see fit.  

 

Power

Woods/Hybrids (includes driver)

Long-Mid irons (7 iron-1 iron)

Short Irons (8-LW)

Chipping 

Putting

Sand AND non fairway/fringe textures

 

An increase in power would add X number or percent of yards to each club.  An increase in other attributes would decrease the mishit effect of that category.  A decrease would obviously do the opposite.

 

I realize that the sand and non fairway/fringe textures could be an issue with how textures are named, but just having a sand attribute would be too little, although this could be too much.  Not sure how to reconcile that..

 

I can see that users would put clubs in their bags to avoid their weaknesses, but that mimics real life anyway, so...

 

Sand and non fairway/fringe textures would not effect chipping from the rough.  Chipping would be ALL chips from any lie

[IanD]

Starting to sound a little arcadey with the various suggestions... even coming up with a few in my head too I may share later..

 

In all of this though, if we try and break it down, do we have basic areas that need covering...?

 

• Golfer Attributes (Physique / Vision / etc)
• Club Set (Shafts / Angled heads / etc)
• Swing Style (Customiseable / Sweet Spot movement / Stance)

 

Is it perhaps easier looking at the characteristics of these, rather than generalise too broadly?

 

Maverick in his earlier post noted the points I found relevant, and Andrew with his comment prior to that too. He stated the "real time distance is determined by ball speed launch angle and spin". Dave and Daz both make good suggestions and both cover a few of the above areas.

 

So, those 3 groups above can affect how we achieve or interact with how we hit the ball. This begins to create a Real Golfer though, something that will become a Character you want to keep. Whether we choose to call it a Career Player or simply one of either several / limited Characters we can freely create. Maybe the player will only have a limited life...  I think we're all likely to have several thoughts about each of the above, but Mike states that no player should have a distinct advantage over another. This is a little difficult to achieve if we're talking of creating something personal, that's worth doing and becomes an addition to the game. I've several thoughts on that myself, but I guess options are what is needed, rather than limitations.

[IanD]

As AJ said our physics is based around real world data so it would be pretty easy for us to dial in any players club head speed and launch angle, spin rate etc to give a realistic result.

 

This approach does the complete opposite of limiting us, what it does in fact is enable any level of player imaginable to play with realistic physics in PerfectGolf.

 

I would regard this comment as being able to re-create any Real Golfer, at any given point in their life, providing you have the data to work from...

 

So, for example, you can create or add to the game, several Golfers in a form of Expansion Pack perhaps... Nick Faldo in his prime years, Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, Seve ETC. With these players, you can choose to compete with them or even PLAY as them. Experiencing their "bag of tricks" skill-sets etc..

 

Even without having the ability to see these character types added, if competing in an offline Tournament single play, there is enough data available to gain realistic scoring, depending upon the relevant courses played (provided it is a recognised course or difficulty/style).

 

[Davefevs]

We haven't decided what sort of distances and trade-offs we might have in the final game but the way we have set our physics up will work with anything we or you decide is best. 
 
Dave I kind of like the idea but how do you explain someone like Luke Donald? Not long or particularly straight off the tee but with an awesome short game.
 
As our main goal is to mirror the real game, it's pretty obvious that everyone who plays the game for real hits the ball different distances and has different strengths and weaknesses. I'm completely open to any and all ideas of how we best recreate this in PerfectGolf without giving any particular type of player a distinct advantage.

Perhaps the increases / decreases are both length and accuracy. Every club has default length and default accuracy (affect of mishit)....and you can sort of trade off against different clubs. So for Luuuuuuuuuke you might decrease wood length and accuracy and increase just accuracy for short irons. I don't feel our own players should be able to be tweaked very much, in danger of finding a killer set-up. But imagine PP being able to create computer replicas, using PGA stats to equate to the increases / decreases. You might not expose the range of tweakable parameters to us, but you can do what like behind the scenes!

At the end of the day it's all about suggestions. The above might not work or be a rubbish idea, but it might spawn some creative juices from others. The good thing is that you guys are taking some of our input on board.

[IanD]

Thought I'd attempt a few descripties whilst being up sooo early on this fine day.. and please, take your time. It may be a long read but your thoughts on this may honestly help these guys decide what it is we seek in a game or how best to alllow us the ability to achieve these desires.. bear in mind it has to be worth it for them too!

 

• Golfer Attributes

 

Aside from creating Golfers to compete or play against, perhaps you can create a limited Character or as stated above, a Career Character. This character may be used in Tournaments, but perhaps specifically designed Tournaments. The Golfer attributes attached to the character could be in various styles, but commonly seen as assigning a limited amount of values to the various attributes. Whether this is enhancing distance, long club accuracy, short club accuracy, recovery shots, spin control, putting and perhaps more, those choices as suggested, would be limited if choosing to create an age related Character. This may mean the Character eventually retires or erodes as it ages, but new ones can be easily recreated to replace those expired.

 

The option of expiring Characters means the user has only limited options for creating and playing. If he perhaps wants more characters, then careful consideration may be required as costs could then be involved. Characters can be stored locally or online if further characters are 'bought'. They may also improve through age or another related addition, allowing more attribute adjustment as the Character develops. Not so much an unlocking development of the Character as such, but one that entices those with this feature to continue using a Character, perhaps "experience points" for want of a better named attribute.

 

What are the relevant gains from having attributes to each area..? It can affect your ability to hit those types of shots easier, with larger sweet spots. Nothing incredibly advantageous if only setup for Golfer Attributes though. What I'm trying to suggest, is you would need to ensure your Club Set and Swing Style match the characteristics you are trying to achieve. No point having a Golfer with an incredible long game, but his clubs are not suited and nor is his swing style. However, you can define this to suit what you feel is the challenge you seek.

 

• Club Set

 

This is a tricky area, but honed well and you can enhance your clubs to suit the additional courses you choose to play. Perhaps you're a target golfer, then you're likely to seek club distance, perhaps improved spin control on certain clubs. You may be a golfer that wants the advantage from the tee, and seek greater flex in the shafts of those longer clubs, improving distance with club head speed.

 

Perhaps the ability to own clubs greater than those used in Tournaments. The limit of 14 clubs selected would always be applied, but being able to create clubs would only allow you to replace those currently held. However, an addition of being able to purchase club space may allow you to hold further clubs that could be used for selective courses or styles you may feel are suitable when needed. No point having a bag of long clubs if you aim to participate in a nearest the pin competition!

 

Dare I suggest the trading of Clubs...? A whole new world..

 

• Swing Style

 

We're hopeful of seeing several swing styles to suit each of our desires when playing. From the traditional click to mouse movement etc. So how do we allow for suitable adjustments and personalisation regarding this area..? First off, we want the ability to change our stance, how we address the ball etc. Are we able to address the ball comfortably, or do we have limited options in a particular direction? If we're within X distance of an immoveable object, our club choice may be restricted too.

 

Can we seek to play the type of shot we want.. controlling the spin, fade or draw etc? How will that affect the swing method chosen and naturally, gaining the necessary club speed to achieve the shot needed? Maybe we can adjust our swing style during gameplay, changing to something that allows us to recover from the shot played.. for example perform a leftie swing or kneeling to take a shot. Perhaps it can be called a recovery shot swing style, forcing this to perhaps become an addition to the Golfer Attribute section earlier mentioned?

 

Perhaps adjustable sweet spots too. Some of us may not want the basic 6 o'clock click, and prefer to adjust where they need to hit their ball. You may be someone who often clicks early or late and want the ability to define your swing, a little personally tailored to your style. We've seen games adjust this due to stance, in the past, but being able to totally adjust this method can simply mean your Golfer is perhaps taller or shorter than another. It may also be something that can be built into the swing itself, allowing more speed to be gained through the ball by changing the position of impact upon the swing. Perhaps that's something too far.. but the idea is out there now.

 

...

 

So.. thoughts, ideas.. additions... a perfect time to discuss your perfect game..?

[IanD]

I'm getting cheesier as I get older... my last lines in posts make me shudder...lol.

[highfade]

I've been messing around with the Links Pro-distance mod (nothing better to do ), setting all my club distances according to someone like Dustin Johnson and what I've found is my scoring didn't really get better.

 

Just like in real golf the pro players always try to leave them self a full shot in as it is difficult to get a half or 3/4 swing always the same. Just as it is difficult to get the snap right if you only go up to 10 o'clock on the swing meter for power.

 

It's also more tougher  to play in wind as more power means more spin and the ball gets easily knocked out of the air hitting into a breeze. You can crank up the power but to be competitive,  know that  you'll have to practice more hitting half shot, sometimes a lower ball flight, taking off spin, etc.

 

I do think it is very important if you create a power player that the power setting goes across all his clubs and not just the driver. You can't have a full swing for a driver and a weaker full swing for your irons; if you want to hit weaker irons you have to do it through the swing meter. Dustin doesn't hit his driver 300 yards and his 8 iron only 150?   

 

I also thought about assigning a limited amount of attributes for different aspects of you game like you get in cricket and tennis games but I'm not too keen on the idea.  

[Davefevs]

I'm getting cheesier as I get older... my last lines in posts make me shudder...lol.

You sniggering hound mutley!

@highfade - I think you make a good point about the likes of Dustin Johnson. So do we think that generally if you hit a big drive you hit an appropriately big 8iron? If so, length doesn't equal better, because Dustin doesn't win every event. What is his accuracy like? Is there a correlation (generally) between the two, I.e. the further you hit it the less accurate you are?

[highfade]

You sniggering hound mutley!

@highfade - I think you make a good point about the likes of Dustin Johnson. So do we think that generally if you hit a big drive you hit an appropriately big 8iron? If so, length doesn't equal better, because Dustin doesn't win every event. What is his accuracy like? Is there a correlation (generally) between the two, I.e. the further you hit it the less accurate you are?

Yes, if have to put on money for an up and down from 100 yards, I'll go with Luke Donald rather than Dustin. Luke can hit full shots but it's harder to hit every 3/4 swing exactly the same. It might be more to do with distance and spin control than direction.

[Acrilix]

I don't have any problem with an attribute system a la TW to enable players to create their own 'unique ' golfer, as long as these attributes do not improve over time to create a 'super golfer'. This for me ruined TW, as the game just got easier and easier to the point that the attributes were having more of an effect than player input. It would be easy to make certain attribute changes like strength (CHS) automatically add negative values to other attributes though, keeping the game balanced. BALANCE is obviously the key word here, and only a lot of testing is likely to achieve this. I don't think lowering CHS should automatically improve accuracy though, as this would remove the challenge for players that actually lower their club distances to add difficulty to the game, not to lessen it. It should be pretty easy for attributes to add small fractional multipliers to the game engine defaults. These attributes should not be adjustable once the player character has been created though - they should define the natural abilities of that particular player - otherwise people will be constantly changing them to adapt to each course (unrealistic).

[Kablammo11]

Look, guys...

It was all already there, in the good old Links game of yore: Setting club distances, overswing, mishit penalties, selecting the swing plane inside-out, outside in, setting up the shots from the right heel or left heel, saving preset swings etc...  And everything we read and see about PG, starting with the origins of its makers,  indicates that more likely than not PG will be a Links Clone, or rather a Links v.2,  transported into a full 3D environment and in HD, yet with a very similar feel and coming with a complete set of shot options (for those who care to delve into such things). 

And it worked very well back then, even without things like attributes attached to gear, skill stats, different types of equipment - all of which I'm not a fan of (gear appareance and shafts should be vanity features not affecting the player performance). In Links, every player had the exact same possibilites from the start, yet had to work out his/her very own, personal way to make the most out of them. I hope this will be the case here as well - and I absolutely trust the Devs to be aware of all of this and capable to come up with something great. They may not be able to publish Mac versions of their stuff, but this they can handle, no doubt!

Forsaking distance for accuracy should be a choice made by the player on the tee - or through setting club distances before that - but not an universal law imposed on him/her by the game. Accuracy decreases over distance because the target to hit automatically becomes smaller, angles get tighter, fairways get narrower, wind has more time to tug at the ball, and because the slight imperfections at impact have more effect over distance. In other words: More distance means less accuracy, even without having to reduce an imaginary value for accuracy: It's a linear, geometric phenomenon, not an exponential, artificial gimmick to be coded into the game. 

Also, this has turned into a bit of an elitist thread. I sometimes wonder if this is about a science project in advanced physics - or a game designed to be fun. Sorry for having to drop this F-bomb.

[IanD]

Boom, shake shake, the room...

 

Not 100% sure this has become an elitist thread lol.. but opinions are what matters ! The more the merrier in discussion terms.

 

Perhaps there is no doubt accuracy is forsaken when seeking more power. It isn't strictly true in every example though, as some here are explaining by comparing real golfers. Mike has also stated the ability to dial in the figures for launch speed and angle allow them to recreate realistic golfers. If this is the science project part, then we have to grasp the concept of what these guys here at PP are seeking to create. Yes, we'd like a game we enjoy, looks great and has numerous options. We'd also like to see the guys who created it, continue to support it and financially benefit from it. So.. can you release something that allows those using the software, the full 100% option of editing every facet of the game? Unlikely..

 

TW currently allows you to step into the past, recreating many things under different ages. If the information is available, then this sort of thing is available within PG too. But we don't want a TW clone do we..? So.. do we necessarily want a Links clone either..? I'm not arguing for or against either of these games. Would either make any money on a PC version... I don't know, I don't have the numbers to know demand forecasts etc..

 

There has to be an element of skill in these games however, even when all the physics are solved.

[bortimus]

I would be fine if we were given a set player like Links 2003 did.  Again, the question is what kind of player will we get? Maybe the club distances will be set to PGA tour averages if this is possible.  If so, overswinging should give you to opportunity to hit MUCH farther than the Links game allowed for an overswing.  I'm thinking like 20-25 yards of carry with the driver to make the risk worth it.  This way we could hit like the farthest players, but the user has to earn the extra yards with an accurate strike.  This would apply to every club in the bag. 

 

On a somewhat related note:

Please give us the opportunity to create CPU PGA players based on attributes that play like their real life counterparts.  I liked the system that Links had EXCEPT that the CPU players would never crush the ball off the tee.  Arrrggghhh!   Also, I'm sure the AI is better now to avoid the occasional ridiculous shot that they would hit.

[bortimus]

Just did a quick test in Links (champ click) to see what the overswing meter actually gave us. 

 

+/- 1 yard

Driver 12/6: carry 275

 

Driver full overswing pure impact: carry 288

 

Driver overswing slight mishit (SMALLEST mishit possible, less that 1 dot): carry 266  offline roughly 70 yards! 

 

A paltry 13 yards of carry gained for the risk of hitting the ball off the course with the slightest mishit! 

 

If the overswing helped more and the penalty was toned down a bit, then the user has the option of becoming a power player if their reflexes are good enough.