123 replies to this topic

[frank70]

  I think what you meant to say was that I have proved my case better than others as to why swing types are not intended as measuring devices for ones skill.  

I have proved that my skills aren't that bad. Skill has nothing to do with pace of game (and no: i don't need two mintes for my shots).

 

Maybe the different swing mechanics aren't intended to measure skills. But they are obviously very different. And yes, some are more difficult than others. But that wasn't the question of the original post. In essence it was a question for other mouse swingers ....  not for 3-clickers that want to shut everything down that goes a little bit deeper than "Just have fun".

 

And that is your strategy everytime: To ridicule other opinions as not relevant and harmful for the "big picture" of the game. Which is not the case. If you don't want to say something on the topic of the thread it would be better if you leave the thread alone.

[Crusher]

Sounds like a plan

See you there!

 

Very close round Bortimus and how nice it was to play someone in Tour Pro who plays at a quick pace.  The match couldn't get any closer. You are a stand-up player.

 

[frank70]

First off... The swing mechanic change and rts was just released. Did you really expect to not have a learning curve..... Really. All the complaints about getting swing types the same and getting stats to represent real life tour stats are great discussions and maybe some guide lines to shoot for. But to tailor a golf game, that represents a sim but still a golf video game, to mirror real life tour stats should not be the main goal. Please stop saying oh look at leader boards and who's on top they must have an advantage.. please stop saying the 3 click is easy. On tour pro i hit the perfect snap maybe 1 time outta 7 or 8.. Some people complained that things were not fair and changes were made, now those same people Can't deal with it.... All I can say is find what suits you best , play, And have a blast And stop all the bickering and leave my 3 click alone....Do I like rts? I think it is an awsome addition, why the motion swing had to be seperated is beyond me. Dont under stand whty the new rts couldnt have just been the  old motion swing w/o the meter, and golfer would move based on mouse movement...why a  a new swig type was introduced is beyond me... as much as i love 3 click and dont want to change. I'm going to wait until all swings are complete b4 choosing 1 Too many differences between rts and motion swing now. Everything needs some time and more tweaks.. I await the day for the devs to say thats it we are done this is it this is what you have and here is bethesda...

I am with you. I generally love the changes to the Tour Pro difficulty for swingers- I just questioned the (over)-pronounced importance of timing. Swinging straight is a skill that now is diminished in importance. If you read my starting post, there is nothing in it that compares to other swing mechanics. Mimic brought that topic up with a little insight from the tester team. And then i questioned the decision to "dumb down" the variance of the RTS-M in order to make the results comparable to 3-click.

 

And you got one thing wrong: A lot of 3-clickers complained that MS is too easy. And even the top MS-players agreed to a change towards more penalty on long shots. Since the patch i haven't heard ONE word from the 3-clickers. The top swingers have lost 4-5 strokes per round since the patch. Now the Top Ten is crowded by 3-clickers. Has any motion swinger complained? I haven't because i love the new challenge and i haven't read any complain by any other mouse swinger. So the traditional 3-clicker-camp came out on top of that and everything is fine. But please don't simplify the mechanics of mouse swing to make it comparable with a 30 year old swing mechanic. That is not innovation, that is backward thinking. 

[mebby]

Very close round Bortimus and how nice it was to play someone in Tour Pro who plays at a quick pace.  The match couldn't get any closer. You are a stand-up player.

 

Bortimus is a good player and a good guy - easy to play a round with. 

 

You want to setup a match later tonight?

[Golden Bear]

I have proved that my skills aren't that bad. Skill has nothing to do with pace of game (and no: i don't need two mintes for my shots).

 

Maybe the different swing mechanics aren't intended to measure skills. But they are obviously very different. And yes, some are more difficult than others. But that wasn't the question of the original post. In essence it was a question for other mouse swingers ....  not for 3-clickers that want to shut everything down that goes a little bit deeper than "Just have fun".

 

And that is your strategy everytime: To ridicule other opinions as not relevant and harmful for the "big picture" of the game. Which is not the case. If you don't want to say something on the topic of the thread it would be better if you leave the thread alone.

No worries Frank.  The fact that you consider my well thought out posts as ridicule speaks volumes about your misunderstanding of them.  Ridicule me is what you did in your last two posts.

 

"Maybe the different swing mechanics aren't intended to measure skills."

 

Thank you.  You are the first to admit this.

 

 As for all your talk about 3 click being a 30 year old innovation it comes across as an elitist attitude whether or not you see it.  The car is a lot older than 30 years yet is still a viable way to get around.  At this point it looks like any further contact with each other will just lead to an argument, which neither of us want.  Peace to you in your life.  

[StoneComet]

This is why I keep asking for a shot clock.  Many do not want it although it would heighten the skill required to play a decent round.  Anyone can play when taking on average 30 seconds to 1 minute to execute a shot.  Those who know how to play the game can do it in 20 or less.

http://golftips.golf...golf-20631.html

Amateurs vs. Pros

In 2011, golf teacher Peter Kostis performed a study for “Golf” magazine comparing how much time professionals and amateurs took to play their shots. Kostis and his crew timed players from the moment they reached the ball until the shot was played. PGA Tour pros at the Arnold Palmer Invitational took an average total of 107 seconds -- using an average of 4.19 strokes -- to play the 458-yard 18th hole at the Bay Hill Club in Orlando, Florida. Amateurs playing the 464-yard 18th hole at Lonnie Poole Golf Course in Raleigh, North Carolina, took just 90 seconds in total, but they required an average of 4.73 strokes to finish the hole.

[tlvx]

Very close round Bortimus and how nice it was to play someone in Tour Pro who plays at a quick pace.  The match couldn't get any closer. You are a stand-up player.

 

 

I find it curious that you would need to post the results of a multiplayer game in the forums.

 

I doubt you would have been so quick to post a screen shot of the result, nor would you have been so complimentary of the opponent... had you failed to prevail in the match.

 

You're nothing more than a front-runner. Just like Cam Newton, yet nowhere near as good. Happy to brag about wins... But, will all too quickly become a sore loser, when the shoe is on the other foot.

 

When you are getting owned in a match, you have been known to completely lose your cool, if you haven't made up some excuse to quit, already.

 

Otherwise, you have been known to start incessantly heckling the other player to hurry up... as if you yourself are the shot-clock that the game has failed to implement. Funny, how guys that play briskly - to their own detriment - are your favorite opponents.

 

Play someone that actually grinds on the course, rather than just grip & rip golf... and you will find yourself playing checkers, while they are playing chess.

 

Don't worry. We know that if you lose a game, it will have been a fluke... surely.

[Golden Bear]

http://golftips.golf...golf-20631.html

Amateurs vs. Pros

In 2011, golf teacher Peter Kostis performed a study for “Golf” magazine comparing how much time professionals and amateurs took to play their shots. Kostis and his crew timed players from the moment they reached the ball until the shot was played. PGA Tour pros at the Arnold Palmer Invitational took an average total of 107 seconds -- using an average of 4.19 strokes -- to play the 458-yard 18th hole at the Bay Hill Club in Orlando, Florida. Amateurs playing the 464-yard 18th hole at Lonnie Poole Golf Course in Raleigh, North Carolina, took just 90 seconds in total, but they required an average of 4.73 strokes to finish the hole.

Interesting post and thank you for putting it up.  I found it interesting that the amateurs averaged 19.027 second per shot. Therefore the 30 second time limit "option" I have been requesting is not unreasonable at all.  It worked great in other golf games I played.  Most found it was a good measuring stick to keep the game flowing while adding a little extra stress because of the time limit.

[tlvx]

Interesting post and thank you for putting it up.  I found it interesting that the amateurs averaged 19.027 second per shot. Therefore the 30 second time limit "option" I have been requesting is not unreasonable at all.  It worked great in other golf games I played.  Most found it was a good measuring stick to keep the game flowing while adding a little extra stress because of the time limit.

 

That article doesn't really specify whether he was talking about total time per shot, or total time to play the hole. But, it wouldn't matter because it's not an evaluation of players that have actually been placed, "on the clock." -- And, how do we know if an unofficial survey person even understands when to start the clock, when considering the rules of turn based tournament golf?

 

Believe it or not, there's actually a fair bit of time to begin to consider one's upcoming golf shot, while walking down the fairway, and while spectating the other players shots... in real golf. Even in a turn based video golf game, there's a fair bit of time to consider our options, before it's even our turn.

 

The key to doing a player timing analysis would be; How long does it take the First player to tee off... and then, the Away player to approach?

 

Nevertheless, how long a given set of golfers takes in a given tournament is irrelevant to the actual Slow Play Rules of Golf. http://golf.about.co...play-policy.htm

 

Either way; of course there should be a Shot Clock in a turn based video golf game. That's just part of the basics in making the game fair and equitable... at least if were talking about Rated, Ranked, or Tournament play.

 

We can't possibly have guys continuously working on algorithms to figure out the perfect parabola to end up in the hole, all throughout a round. That's just a non-starter.

 

Naturally, if guys want to play practice rounds or friendlies, they should be able to turn the clock off.

 

The alternative is Simultaneous Play... which takes away from the traditional "Golf" experience entirely.

 

But, who is to say that we cannot have all of these options, from a literal Speed Golf mode, all the way up to a 60 second shot clock... and even Simultaneous Play, as well?

 

If someone wants to set a game up on 15 second shot clock... there is probably going to be someone else - equally in a rush for time, or just prefers speed golf too - who will probably join that game.

 

Conversely, if someone sets a game up on a 60 second shot clock, there is going to be someone else, who - is probably not in a rush for time either, but prefers that the game have certain well defined time limits - will probably join that game as well.

 

Ultimately, options are intended for the users that want to make use of said options, and set games up that way. -- It doesn't change anything anyone else is already doing.

 

As it currently stands, if we set a game, and someone takes 31, or even 61 seconds to hit a shot... let's not pretend like there is a timer governing the game.

 

That said, if a guy repeatedly takes 90 to 120 seconds, or more, to hit every single shot... that's nothing more than abusing the pace of play in the grouping, timers or not.

 

But, that also depends on whether or not we are intentionally in the midst of a practice round, or some sort of instructional round... with someone else in tow. But, they would already be aware of that.

[mebby]

...The alternative is simultaneous play... which takes away from the "golf" experience entirely.

Don't tell that to TGC!!  LOL!!

[Golden Bear]

@ tlvx  

 

" PGA Tour pros at the Arnold Palmer Invitational took an average total of 107 seconds -- using an average of 4.19 strokes -- to play the 458-yard 18th hole at the Bay Hill Club in Orlando, Florida." 

 

Ummm I think your reading comprehension skills are lacking.  An AVERAGE TOTAL which means the total time to play the AVERAGE shots of 4.19 strokes.  Moving along.....

 

ps, Just curious as to why you have started making your posts with so many improper paragraph starts?  

[tlvx]

@ tlvx  

" PGA Tour pros at the Arnold Palmer Invitational took an average total of 107 seconds -- using an average of 4.19 strokes -- to play the 458-yard 18th hole at the Bay Hill Club in Orlando, Florida. 

 

Ummm I think your reading comprehension skills are lacking.  An AVERAGE TOTAL which means the total time to play the AVERAGE shots of 4.19 strokes.  Moving along.....

 

If you actually watch Tour golf, or the Golf Channel... I think you would have some doubt over whether Tour players take only "19 seconds" as you have assumed, to hit each golf shot... unless you are starting the timer far too late in their deliberations over each shot.

 

If Tour players took less than 20 seconds to hit shots... do the math on how fast these rounds would actually be over. As it stands, obviously they are not averaging that... otherwise we wouldn't be watching Tour golf for 4 hours at a time.

[bortimus]

Not to derail this thread too much    but I think it's fair to comment about the above posted scorecard.

 

It was understood that the card would be posted. No harm done and I'm not bothered by it.   

I think I hit one fairway and had several really horrendous tee shots.  I got lucky by missing a hazard by a few feet, and I rolled in a really long putt.  My score was probably the best I could have salvaged from my terrible ballstriking. Just couldn't find the tempo consistently.  And I had fun doing it

Good match and at a good pace.  

 

I'll pass it back to you guys...

[mebby]

I'm still waiting on him to accept my request for a match tonight... I've tried to play him before but he kept disappearing from the game setup.

[Golden Bear]

If you actually watch Tour golf, or the Golf Channel... I think you would have some doubt over whether Tour players take only "19 seconds" as you have assumed, to hit each golf shot... unless you are starting the timer far too late in their deliberations over each shot.

 

If Tour players took less than 20 seconds to hit shots... do the math on how fast these rounds would actually be over. As it stands, obviously they are not averaging that... otherwise we wouldn't be watching Tour golf for 4 hours at a time.

Again your reading comprehension is askew.  The average I quoted was not for the tour players, it was for the amateurs.  90 seconds divided by 4.73 strokes equals 19.027.  The pros shot 107 seconds average total over 4.19 average strokes which would equal 25.536 seconds.  At 25 seconds on average I have witnessed  watching the pros.

 

 Like the other post where someone put up a cartoon and said you always have to have the last word.  At least make sure you are not correcting someone when it is you who are confused.  

[tlvx]

Again your reading comprehension is askew.  The average I quoted was not for the tour players, it was for the amateurs.  90 seconds divided by 4.73 strokes equals 19.027.  The pros shot 107 seconds average total over 4.19 average strokes which would equal 25.536 seconds.  At 25 seconds on average I have witnessed  watching the pros.

 

 Like the other post where someone put up a cartoon and said you always have to have the last word.  At least make sure you are not correcting someone when it is you who are confused.  

 

You think Tour pros take an average of less than 26 seconds to deliberate over a shot... based on some unofficial study based on a single tournament... that doesn't even cover all of the holes.

 

-- And yet, "my reading is askew?"

 

Try to find a little something called, Common Sense.

[Golden Bear]

You think Tour pros take an average of less than 26 seconds to deliberate over a shot... based on some unofficial study based on a single tournament... that doesn't even cover all of the holes.

 

-- And yet, "my reading is askew?"

 

Try to find a little something called, Common Sense.

Do not shoot me or my math as it was sound.  Go after the editor who wrote the post.  Your issue is with him.  Also I am still wondering why you are making multiple paragraph errors.  You can have the last word next as per usual.  You 2 times made incorrect statements about what I have texted then skirt the issue without a reply or apology for the mistake.  I tried giving you a second chance, but with all your abuse and constant spamming of PP with countless small single complaint filled posts lately, I for one have had my fill.  Text away until your heart is content as I won't see any further replies from you or your pugnacious nature.

[tlvx]

Do not shoot me or my math as it was sound.  Go after the editor who wrote the post.  You issue is with him.  Also I am still wondering why you are making multiple paragraph errors.  You can have the last word next as per usual.  You 2 times made incorrect statements about what I have texted then skirt the issue without a reply or apology for the mistake.  I tried giving you a second chance, but with all your abuse and constant spamming of PP with countless small single complaint filled posts lately, I for one have had my fill.  Text away until your heart is content as I won't see any further replies from you or your pugnacious nature.

 

You don't seem to understand that you are attempting to use wholly inconclusive statistics to make a point. There's just no there, there.

 

It doesn't matter whether you're talking about amateurs or pros... none of that article you're are trying to reference, means anything legitimate.

 

Maybe you should try attending a few golf tournaments, for a change. It shouldn't take you long to see that your assumptions are ridiculous, and your penchant to so quickly believe anything you see on the internet, is also ridiculous.

 

I'll remember to post frivolous articles anytime I want you to believe something.

[MimicPS]

Interesting post and thank you for putting it up.  I found it interesting that the amateurs averaged 19.027 second per shot. Therefore the 30 second time limit "option" I have been requesting is not unreasonable at all.  It worked great in other golf games I played.  Most found it was a good measuring stick to keep the game flowing while adding a little extra stress because of the time limit.

 

I'd sometimes like a shot clock to be in place for the constant cycling through drop options I sometimes see in online matches.... the poor fella with the buggy taking them back and forth must have to go and have a recharge before he gets done sometimes....

[StoneComet]

Do not shoot me or my math as it was sound.  Go after the editor who wrote the post.  Your issue is with him.  Also I am still wondering why you are making multiple paragraph errors.  You can have the last word next as per usual.  You 2 times made incorrect statements about what I have texted then skirt the issue without a reply or apology for the mistake.  I tried giving you a second chance, but with all your abuse and constant spamming of PP with countless small single complaint filled posts lately, I for one have had my fill.  Text away until your heart is content as I won't see any further replies from you or your pugnacious nature.

 

Actually, and it was not abundantly clear to me from the way the sentence was constructed, I took it as Professionals on average in this experiment took 107 seconds from the time they arrived at (not addressed) their ball for each shot. So my math would say, not taking into account the walking to the ball that hole # 18 took 4.19 shots x 107 seconds or 448.33 seconds or 7.47 minutes. 18 x 7.47 giving on average 134.5 minutes to play the shots, so again about 2.24 hours to play a round not including the walking. Amateurs, 4.73 shots x 90 seconds or  425.7 seconds or 7.09 minutes; 18 holes x 7.09 = 127.71 minutes or 2.13 hours without walking. Of course this is all extrapolated off of a small sample and does not include variation for par 3 or par 5 holes or a larger sampling base.

 

I'm reading it opposite of what you are...my point was that a 20 to 30 second clock is unreasonable from my point of view and equates to what TGCT offers as speed golf; something I do not understand. I would agree that a clock might be an interesting addition to competitive tournaments but I think on average a 90 second timer would be the starting point. We could argue the semantics and reading comprehension levels but when I read: "Kotis and his crew timed players from the moment they reached the ball until the shot was played. PGA Tour pros at the Armold Palmer Invitational took an average total of 107 seconds ---" separated by the --- I take it as the total average per shot and the 4.19 average strokes as ancillary information. The following link supports this interpretation of the text in question.

http://www.golflink....golf-holes.html

with the following excerpt from the link:

Hole-by-Hole

A normal golf hole will, on average, take a group of professional golfers around 10 minutes and a group of average amateurs around 15 minutes. This equates to an 18-hole round of golf taking anywhere from 3 to 4 1/2 hours.

My position is for more time than you suggest. The extra 3 minutes accounting for turn order and walking. It is interesting to note that amateurs on average take longer per hole than the shorter stroke time per hole would imply. I would have to do more research and actually do some timing of my own to reach more definitive conclusions, but I think you will find if you research it further or even time the average player in real life situations you will find that 20 or even 30 seconds is too short of a time period to be fair to the field on average.

The first link I provided also has the official stance on timed play. I've never seen a committee or tournament strictly enforce a countdown timer but it could if it wanted too. I think it's just considered bad form like chipping on a green.

Undue Delay

Rule 6-7 states that a golfer must play a shot “without undue delay.” The same rule applies to players who’ve just completed a hole (other than the 18th), stating that they must proceed to the next tee to continue their round and not “unduly delay play.” Rule 6-7 also allows a tournament committee to set its own standards to discourage slow play. Pursuant to Note 2 to Rule 6-7, a committee’s regulations may limit the time in which a golfer must complete a round, a hole or a stroke. The penalty for violating Rule 6-7 is the loss of the hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play.